hiKelleigh

Pretzelizing the Holy Bible

Twisting the Holy Bible into a Pretzel

"Men are like wine. They start out fruity and then turn full-bodied with age until they go all sour and vinegary and give you a headache."

 

"If he cannot find a man willing to stand, then he will use a woman", Momma C

Kelleigh replied:  "Amen Momma C!"

 

 

Kelleigh God Comment
The unfermented wine that He provided for the wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink, neither wine nor strong drink. John 2:9-10 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,  And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now By claiming that the wine which Jesus made was grape juice, and not even better wine than the original which made them "well drunk", Kelleigh infers that Jesus LIED or was at least disingenuous to the wedding party.
Christ never places before men that which would be a temptation Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Mat 10:34 The Holy Bible warns us not to drink wine in the process of   ferementation, Kelleigh claims that it says not to drink wine at all.
He seeks ever to bless Joh 8:44 Ye [jews] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. I have been doing some research into the Passover and how it is celebrated by the Jews. I have run across something interesting. They have strict rules about the strength of the wine. It is not to be deluted down with grape juice unless you have some medical reason or cannot afford the proper wine. Since we know Jesus observed the Passover at least 33 times... Well I just find that fact of interest in this debate. Dennis
Sea replied: "I was about to give up on the idea of Jesus being the promised Messiah.  So many on this forum have insisted that Jesus made booze for an already intoxicated crowd, and had me at my wits end. I KNOW the Savior would not do this and you have made an excellent argument" And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now It's a straw man argument to claim that "well drunk" means intoxicated so that the argument can be made that Jesus wouldn't have dared subject His people to drunkeness.  It again infers Jesus LIED or was disingenuous, which is even more egregious than misrepresenting Scripture in the first place.
The wine that Christ made from water at the marriage feast  of Cana was the pure juice of the grape when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

What kind of wedding party would be so drunk that they couldn't tell the difference between wine and water?  Why would the jews accuse John the Baptist of being a winebibber if he was drinking only grape juice?  Is it only jews who make such an issue of wine, and misrepresent Jesus in order to do so?
Prov 23:31 Don't even look at fermented wine, yet alone drink it! (KJV) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright

[note: the question about which version Kelleigh is reading from was never answered.

This verse says not to drink "wine WHEN it ... moveth itself aright", which is DURING the fermentation process.  If the warning was not drink wine BEFORE it's fermented, then it cannot possibly say not to drink wine at all as Kelleigh's version of Scripture reads.
God did not create poisonous plants, that is a result of the entrance of sin to this world. God did not create fermented grapes that is a technology developed by man. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 Fermentation is a biological process. If I remember correctly, microbes consume sugars and discharge the substance that we call alcohol. My mom once called it "bacteria urine" to disuade me from indulging... Berean Joe
New Webster Encyclopedic Dictionary of the English Language (1971) defines "must" as "Wine or juice pressed from the grapes but not fermented." This definition clearly equates "wine" with grape juice. G3631, oinos, oy'-nos, A primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin [H3196]); "wine" (literally or figuratively): - wine.

H3196, yayin, yah'-yin, From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

Must cannot be used to make grape juice.  It can only be used to make wine.  Must includes the stems, skins, seeds, and other parts of the grape required to make good wine.  It's incorrect to infer from this that must and wine are the same thing, as they are at two different stages of the fermentation process.
The problem is that people have taken the contempory (modern) meaning of the word (whether in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or English) -as an intoxicating beverage-and have made it the only definition of the word. That is incorrect scholarship! It is inaccurate both biblically and secularly, and it is inaccurate in the English language historically  

Genesis 9:20-22 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Oxford English Dictionary definition of "wine":
"the fermented juice of the grape used as a beverage"
Josephus' statement offers another significant insight, namely, that it was customary long before Israel became a nation to squeeze the juice from grapes and drink it immediately in its fresh, unfermented state. This is what Josephus called gleukos, the term which our English translators render "wine" or "new wine" in Acts 2:13. Does not this translation support the conclusion that unfermented grape juice was called "wine" in older English usage? Luke 12:1 "In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trod one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy." Josephus was a jew and an admitted Pharisee, and this is precisely the leaven of the Pharisees which Jesus warned us about.  Is it only Pharisees who promote the notion that Israelites are "winebibbers" because they drink wine??
Alcohol is an expensive luxury. Proverbs 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. Alcohol is incredibly cheap.  What's expensive are the monumental taxes levied on alcohol by teetotallers, which are then used to subsidize single mother households, each of which does more damage to society than a suptertanker load of alcohol ever could
The passage of scripture that gives the account of the wedding at  Cana DOES NOT provide evidence that Christ provided intoxicating   wine to the wedding guests. Num 6:20-21  And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine. This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation. If this wine drunk by Nazarites is simply grape juice, then why prevent him from drinking it in the first place?  Why should he have to go through such an elaborate and complicated ritual before being able to drink wine again?

Would Jesus of Nazareth have made a mockery of the Nazarite ritual, as well as of God's Law, by serving grape juice?

Alcohol is huge moral curse to the human race Num 6:3 He shall separate [himself] from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. the ritual that you mention is the ritual that is performed when a person has reached the end of the time for their vow. after the time of their vow was completed, they performed the ritual and then they could drink wine again. also a person on a nazarite vow not only did not drink wine but also did not drink grape juice of even eat grapes- the apple
It was Christ who directed that John the Baptist would drink neither wine nor strong drink 1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

 

It was Jesus who ordered the servants to make wine, not grape juice, from water.Would those who claim that Scripture says something different than what we think it means please explain how and why they arrived at their positions?
Alcohol is huge moral curse to the human race (FOOD is not a moral issue). Hos 9:3-4 They shall not dwell in the LORD's land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria. They shall not offer wine offerings to the LORD, neither shall they be pleasing unto him: their sacrifices shall be unto them as the bread of mourners; all that eat thereof shall be polluted God punished Israel by refusing to accept wine and food offerings from them.  If wine was a "moral curse", then God certainly would NEVER have accepted a wine offering.  90 million Americans are now obese, 9,000 TIMES as many as die annually from cirrhosis, making food a 9,000X greater curse (or danger) to this nation than wine.
"Both are at fault" [when] a beautiful woman with a lovely shape wears suggestive, immodest clothing. She is thus placing a temptation before men both single and married to impure thoughts and/or sinful actions. Are their thoughts and/or actions her fault? Or, The men's fault? Or both? Tit 2:5-6 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. The woman is at fault.  Had the woman obeyed God's Word, the man would not have sinned in the first place.  To say "both are at fault" is like blaming the telephone pole because the car ran into it.
I'm beginning to see that each side of this question can support their view by quoting scripture, examining the original languages, appealing to logic and still arrive at two different conclusions. I believe this is due to differences in each persons or group's Biblical world view. 2Ti 3:6-7 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. God is not double minded.  Neither is His Law.  There's only one truth in His Law.  Either one position is truth, or the other one is, but both will never be truth.

 

 

 

Num 6:3 He shall separate [himself] from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

  1. wine
  2. strong drink
  3. vinegar of wine
  4. vinegar of strong drink
  5. liquor of grapes
  6. moist grapes
  7. dried grapes

"Strong drink" is a reference to alcohol which is fermented from grains, like hops, barley, wheat, and rice, which today is called beer, scotch, whiskey, and saki.   "Liquor of grape" is a reference to liqueurs like brandy and cognac.   Liqueurs, vinegar of wine and vinegar of strong drink contain alcohol, and moist grapes and dried grapes will ferment naturally if not stored properly, which explains why a Nazarite should not drink or eat it during the days of his separation.

But after the days of his separation, his head is shaven, his hair is offered as a sacrifice, other rituals are performed, and Scripture says that he can then drink wine:

Num 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

If he's now permitted to drink wine, it's presumed that he's now permitted to eat and drink the other items on the above list, as there is  no other verse suggesting that these other items are prohibited (to either Nazarites or to ordinary Israelites).  If there was a distinction between "fermented wine" and "unfermented wine", this would be precisely the place to mention it.  But there was no mention of "unfermented wine" then, it's been an oxymoron ever since, and today "wine" is defined simply as "the fermented juice of the grape used as a beverage".

The fact that a Nazarite was prohibited from drinking wine is no more an indictment of wine than fasting is an indictment of food, or putting out the leavened bread for a week is an indictment of yeast.  Everything has its place in God's Orderly Arrangement, including wine and alcohol.  If it was proper then to have some Israelites abstain from alcohol for a period of time, then it's probably proper to do so today.  But to suggest that *everyone* should be prohibited from drinking wine, *all* the time, is to make a mockery of God, His Law, Nazarites, and Jesus.

 

 

More Kelleigh Pretzels:

Proverbs 31

A good woman does good all the days of her life.
Alcohol has not brought good to society.

A good woman brings prosperity to her household.
Alcohol does not bring prosperity to most families, 
often the 
opposite.

A good woman is thrifty
Alcohol is an expensive luxury.

A good woman is industrious and not given to 
lethargy.
Alcohol induces lethargy, fatigue & laziness.

A good woman is girded with strength.
Alcohol weakens.

A good woman helps the poor and needy.
Alcohol as a predilection for ruining the lives of 
the poor & needy.

A good woman brings honor to her husband. 
Alcohol seldom brings honor to those who drink it 
(unless the 
individual is a rock star).

A good woman is wise.
Alcohol lessens intelligent conversation and benumbs 
the brain.

A good woman is called blessed.
Alcohol is not blessed.

And would you please try to get my forum name right 
next time!

Kelleigh.