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<<< No wonder you agree with these laws.  They favour men exclusively with no consideration for women.>>>

 

The problem is not God.

 

The problem is YOU!

 

You don’t understand them.

 

And you are *DISHONEST* when you claim that things that aren’t in the Holy Bible are things you ALREADY admitted WERE there, and already admitted that you DID understand, at least enough to accurately paraphrase them.

 

And no, no kikeaholic, not even your faggot popes, will ever be above HIM!!

 

John Knight

 

 

 

 

 

From: israeliteidentity@yahoogroups.com [mailto:israeliteidentity@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Viva Veridad
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 10:15 PM
To: israeliteidentity@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [israeliteidentity] Equality?

 





No wonder you agree with these laws.  They favour men exclusively with no consideration for women.

 

 


From: Jacob Israel <ji@christianparty.net>
To: houseisrael@yahoogroups.com; Israelites@yahoogroups.com; israeliteidentity@yahoogroups.com; hilloftorah@yahoogroups.com; christiandentity@yahoogroups.com; identity@yahoogroups.com; TWOMIFTG@yahoogroups.com; thespiritofjacob@yahoogroups.com; christiandentity@yahoogroups.com; jewsareedom@yahoogroups.com; mamzers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 12:58:30 AM
Subject: [israeliteidentity] Equality?

<<< IT doesnt mean a ritual impurity brenton translates it better as:
Deu 24:1 (24:3) And if any one should take a wife, and should dwell with her, then it shall come to pass if she should not have found favour before him, because he has found some unbecoming thing in her, that he shall write for her a bill of divorcement, and give it into her hands, and he shall send her away out of his house.>>>

 

 

Note also, Bet, that there is no provision for a woman to “divorce” her husband.

 

That’s a kikeaholic abomination which led many previous just Christian nations to  the highest divorce rates in the WORLD, with the US leading the pack!

 

http://christianpar ty.net/divorceca lifornia. htm

 

Sincerely,

 

 

John Knight

 

 

 

 

From: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:israeliteid entity@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of bet_khumri
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 9:19 PM
To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [israeliteidentity] Re: Equality?

 




IT doesnt mean a ritual impurity brenton translates it better as:
Deu 24:1 (24:3) And if any one should take a wife, and should dwell with her, then it shall come to pass if she should not have found favour before him, because he has found some unbecoming thing in her, that he shall write for her a bill of divorcement, and give it into her hands, and he shall send her away out of his house.

--- In israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com, "Debunks" <debunks@...> wrote:
>
> This is the old Mosaic code - Notice how the sentence reads, 'BECAUSE HE
> HAS FOUND SOME UNCLEANESS IN HER....' - In other words, the passage refers
> to adulterous relations - fornication with a man or men other than her
> lawful spouse - hence the references to 'uncleanliness and defilement.' And
> it also must apply to an adulterous husband as well, or God would not be
> just.
>
> (Deu 24:1) When a man has taken a wife and married her, and it happens that
> she finds no favor in his eyes, because he has found some uncleanness in her
> then let him write her a bill of divorce and put it in her hand, and send
> her out of his house.
> (Deu 24:2) And when she has departed from his house, she goes and becomes
> another man's;
> (Deu 24:3) and the latter husband hates her and writes her a bill of divorce
> and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house; or if the latter
> husband dies, he who took her to be his wife
> (Deu 24:4) her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to
> be his wife after she is defiled. For that is hateful before Jehovah. And
> you shall not cause the land to sin, which Jehovah your God gives you for an
> inheritance.
>
> -------Original Message----- --
>
> From: isaiah14
> Date: 7/5/2009 6:57:05 AM
> To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [israeliteidentity] Re: Equality?
>
> Actually there had to be a reason for divorce. This is why Jesus says that
> God hates divorce, and that you don't divorce unless it was because of
> fornication. You must remember that the Talmud uses the Bible to twist
> things around. This is why you have to be careful, and to study to show
> yourself approved.
>
> -------Original Message----- --
>
> From: Viva Veridad
> Date: 7/5/2009 8:35:03 AM
> To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [israeliteidentity] Re: Equality?
>
> I think all he had to do was verbalise it. She didn't even get it in
> writing. After all, she was little more than a dog, according to our
> heroic" heretics!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Debunks <debunks@...>
> To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 4:39:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [israeliteidentity] Re: Equality?
>
>
> In fact, all a man had to do to be rid of his wife in those days was simply
> write out a little note of divorce and hand it
> to her. How convenient, heh?
>
> -------Original Message----- --
>
> From: Viva Veridad
> Date: 7/4/2009 7:35:25 PM
> To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: Re: [israeliteidentity] Re: Equality?
>
> Women are chattle? Really! Where does it say that in the Bible?
>
>
> Also the point about making a promise, which must have hubby's approval. I
> never read that in the Bible.
>
>
> Hmm. I can see that these passages in the Old Testament really appeal to
> the man who views women as less than animals. A very unattractive type of
> man altogether, a type of brute, I would say.
>
>
> I can't see how a loving God could condone what Bet is saying.
>
>
> I believe these passages were intended for a time when women were totally
> dependent on men, were not employed outside the home, and did not travel
> alone or abroad. They needed protection, and they had no rights, really,
> except what a loving husband, if he was evolved enough to respect his wife,
> would deem fit to extend to her. These were old times which do not apply
> any more.
>
>
> And I suppose if a women could not bear children, she was doomed. Or
> probably stoned by John Knight? I could imagine that sort of irrationality
> emanating from a strict and literal adherence to antiquated customs.
>
>
> Thankfully, God sees us as his wonderful creation, valuable, the Temple of
> the Holy Spirit.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: bet_khumri <bet_khumri@yahoo. com>
> To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 10:18:08 PM
> Subject: [israeliteidentity] Re: Equality?
>
>
> Women are chattle and property this is Biblical. They cant even make a
> promise to someone without a mans approval, If they make an Oath the Husband
> can even nullify it.
>
> Women are told by Paul that they are to be submissive and they are saved
> from the devils deception by rearing children.
>
> --- In israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com, Viva Veridad <vivaveridad@ ...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Another point I should like to make on the matter of equality. No, women
> are not equal to men.
> >
> > And men are not equal to women.
> >
> > The sexes have different functions. Of course, they are not equal.
> >
> > They are COMPLEMENTARY. They complement each other. In short, they need
> each other.
> >
> > But equality? No.
> >
> > However, that does not mean that women are inferior to men at all. They
> just have different functions, as I said before.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: bet_khumri <bet_khumri@ ...>
> > To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 8:47:50 PM
> > Subject: [israeliteidentity] Re: Augustine a genocidal maniac who believed
> in forcefully converting
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If you think you can address men as equals in matters of religion then
> your husband is not a man, as he is either under your thumb or does not
> chastise you for doing it.
> >
> > Yes many men do need women because they are not real men. Any man who
> believes women are their equals and not property I shall treat those men
> like a womans equal by treating them as women!
> >
> > --- In israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com, Viva Veridad <vivaveridad@ ..
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Don't be silly. When I want to quote from the bible, I'm hardly going to
> get the book down and type passages from it when I can just as easily let
> Google find it for me. No, I agree, that is not "research." But it helps in
> those instances where it would be just plain silly to type a citation when
> it's already typed.
> > >
> > > Don't be nit-picking.
> > >
> > > And nowhere in the Bible does it state that a woman has no rights in
> religion and must be under a man's thumb, or words to that effect. What
> stupidity! Most men can't operate without a woman behind them!
> > >
> > > Oh, and just to let you know, Bet, old crumb, or Rob, or whatever your
> name is, I am not a feminist, I am against feminism. I actually do believe
> that a man should be the head of his household. But that's also because I
> see what happens when he's not. A man has to feel more manly, and can only
> do that when he's in charge, and not when he's being hen-pecked. But he also
> has to earn the respect of the woman. So it's not all that cut and dried
> either. I'm thinking of stupid men who try to lord it over on intelligent
> women!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: bet_khumri <bet_khumri@ ...>
> > > To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 7:54:58 PM
> > > Subject: [israeliteidentity] Re: Augustine a genocidal maniac who
> believed in forcefully converting
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Googling" isnt research. That is all you guys do is post something from
> some site that has your preconceived notion. If you cant explain it in your
> own words than it isnt worth discussing with you.
> > >
> > > --- In israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com, Viva Veridad <vivaveridad@ .
> .> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I do proper research. Not like your comic strip-type "research."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: isaiah14 <isaiah14@ .>
> > > > To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Saturday, July 4, 2009 7:28:20 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [israeliteidentity] Re: Augustine a genocidal maniac who
> believed in forcefully converting
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think you better do some research.
> > > >
> > > > -------Original Message----- --
> > > >
> > > > From: Viva Veridad
> > > > Date: 6/30/2009 9:51:08 PM
> > > > To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Subject: Re: [israeliteidentity] Re: Augustine a genocidal maniac who
> believed in forcefully converting
> > > >
> > > > Maybe in your dreams! I have met many Copts and they worship as we do.
> > > >
> > > > They are not a monophysite sect at all.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: bet_khumri <bet_khumri@ yahoo. com>
> > > > To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 9:49:31 PM
> > > > Subject: [israeliteidentity] Re: Augustine a genocidal maniac who
> believed in forcefully converting
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Coptic Orthodox is a monophysite sect that rejects the council of
> Chalcedon they are labeled heretical.
> > > >
> > > > --- In israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com, Viva Veridad <vivaveridad@
> ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ha, you're like all the rest of the uninformed who like to tell us
> Catholics what our church teaches, and they never get it right.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Catholic Church respects Orthodoxy (and that includes the Copts)
> as our brethern. Orthodoxy is in schism, but they are not heretics.
> > > > >
> > > > > Protestants are heretics. Orthodox (and Copts) are not. They are in
> schism, but that is not at all the same thing. And the Catholic Church
> respects all of its rites, which one day will be united as they once were
> before the schism.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > From: bet_khumri <bet_khumri@ ...>
> > > > > To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:07:22 PM
> > > > > Subject: [israeliteidentity] Re: Augustine a genocidal maniac who
> believed in forcefully converting
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Catholic church says the Copts are heretics. They are not in
> communion with rome.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com, Viva Veridad
> <vivaveridad@ ...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Catholics do not look down on Copts. I meet a lot of Copts, and we
> always end up discussing religion. I think very highly of them. They are
> kind and good people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You write a lot of rot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I attend a Byzantine church (in communion with Rome) and we have a
> lot of interaction with the local Orthodox churches (not in communion with
> Rome), but our theology is the same, and it's sound. And it's Trinitarian.
> In fact, their value of the Trinity is more obvious even than in a Catholic
> church, though we know for a fact how important the Trinity is to Catholics.
>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > > > From: bet_khumri <bet_khumri@ ...>
> > > > > > To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:34:54 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [israeliteidentity] Re: Augustine a genocidal maniac who
> believed in forcefully converting
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have you even bothered yet to read epistola 93? Because shortly I
> will post his quotes in context of the whole epistle with relevant sections
> highlighted and annotated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually Yes I would consider Muhammad more Saintly. He taught
> there should be No compulsion in religion. He protected Christians! The
> Islamic Caliphate came to the Aid of Copts and Christians in Palestine. Even
> today Baba Shenouda III is called a heretic and anathemized by your church
> yet he sits side by side with Muslims who would not dare do that to him! He
> is cursed by his "brothers" and shown love by "Strangers." It is like the
> story of the good samaritan.
> > > > > > The catholics look down on the copts and pass him by while
> uttering curse but the Muslims came by and protected them though they were
> strangers!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com, "Debunks" <debunks@ >
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I called him one of God's greatest saints because he is. Do you
> think
> > > > > > > Mohammed is a greater saint than he?
> > > > > > > Moreover, I simply asked you to provide a citation for your
> claims, and I
> > > > > > > will tell you right now that your characterization of Saint
> Augustine as a
> > > > > > > genocidal maniac who believed in forcefully converting' is
> ridiculous and
> > > > > > > malevolent. Where did he advocate 'genocide?' How is forceful
> conversion
> > > > > > > tantamount to GENOCIDE in your mind? Please explain to me how
> that process
> > > > > > > develops, or rather, deteriorates and becomes degraded from
> Augustine's
> > > > > > > comments to your brain?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Additionally, you have MISREPRESENTED the context in which St.
> Augustine
> > > > > > > wrote this Epistle and WHY.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It appears to me that it is your desire to reduce an exceedingly
> complicated
> > > > > > > event in the history of Christianity and reduce it to mere
> sloganeering.
> > > > > > > That is hardly a scholarly examination of Augustine's reasons
> for advocating
> > > > > > > conversion by means of compulsion - I know this will be like
> throwing pearls
> > > > > > > before the proverbial and that you will probably never read it,
> but here is
> > > > > > > an excellent recap of the situation which one can find on
> newadvent.org. I
> > > > > > > earnestly suggest that you read it before accusing me of not
> reading the
> > > > > > > works of St. Augustine again -
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Donatists
> > > > > > > A heretical and schismatical sect (311-411) who claimed that the
> validity of
> > > > > > > the sacraments depended on the moral character of the minister,
> and that
> > > > > > > sinners could not be members of the Church, and could not be
> tolerated by a
> > > > > > > true Church unless their sins were secret. The sect came into
> existence in
> > > > > > > Africa during the disorders following the persecution under
> Diocletian
> > > > > > > (303-305). The leader was Donatus, Bishop of Carthage, in
> opposition to
> > > > > > > Majorinus, whom he accused of being invalidly consecrated
> because his
> > > > > > > predecessor had been consecrated by a traditor. The claims of
> the sect were
> > > > > > > opposed by Pope Miltiades, 313; the Council of Arles, 314; the
> Emperor
> > > > > > > Constantine the Great, 316; and by Saint Augustine, 391-411,
> when a
> > > > > > > conference was held at Carthage in which the Donatists were
> confounded.
> > > > > > > Their churches were seized, and they were exiled. They
> disappeared from
> > > > > > > history after the Saracenic invasion of Africa.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Donatists
> > > > > > > tt=94
> > > > > > > The Donatist schism in Africa began in 311 and flourished just
> one hundred
> > > > > > > years, until the conference at Carthage in 411, after which its
> importance
> > > > > > > waned.
> > > > > > > Causes of the schism
> > > > > > > In order to trace the origin of the division we have to go back
> to the
> > > > > > > persecution under Diocletian. The first edict of that emperor
> against
> > > > > > > Christians (24 Feb., 303) commanded their churches to be
> destroyed, their
> > > > > > > Sacred Books to be delivered up and burnt, while they themselves
> were
> > > > > > > outlawed. Severer measures followed in 304, when the fourth
> edict ordered
> > > > > > > all to offer incense to the idols under pain of death. After the
> abdication
> > > > > > > of Maximian in 305, the persecution seems to have abated in
> Africa. Until
> > > > > > > then it was terrible. In Numidia the governor, Florus, was
> infamous for his
> > > > > > > cruelty, and, though many officials may have been, like the
> proconsul
> > > > > > > Anulinus, unwilling to go further than they were obliged, yet St
> Optatus is
> > > > > > > able to say of the Christians of the whole country that some
> were confessors
> > > > > > > some were martyrs, some fell, only those who were hidden escaped
> The
> > > > > > > exaggerations of the highly strung African character showed
> themselves. A
> > > > > > > hundred years earlier Tertullian had taught that flight from
> persecution was
> > > > > > > not permissible. Some now went beyond this, and voluntarily gave
> themselves
> > > > > > > up to martyrdom as Christians. Their motives were, however, not
> always above
> > > > > > > suspicion. Mensurius, the Bishop of Carthage, in a letter to
> Secundus,
> > > > > > > Bishop of Tigisi, then the senior bishop (primate) of Numidia,
> declares that
> > > > > > > he had forbidden any to be honoured as martyrs who had given
> themselves up
> > > > > > > of their own accord, or who had boasted that they possessed
> copies of the
> > > > > > > Scriptures which they would not relinquish; some of these, he
> says, were
> > > > > > > criminals and debtors to the State, who thought they might by
> this means rid
> > > > > > > themselves of a burdensome life, or else wipe away the
> remembrance of their
> > > > > > > misdeeds, or at least gain money and enjoy in prison the
> luxuries supplied
> > > > > > > by the kindness of Christians. The later excesses of the
> Circumcellions show
> > > > > > > that Mensurius had some ground for the severe line he took. He
> explains that
> > > > > > > he had himself taken the Sacred Books of the Church to his own
> house, and
> > > > > > > had substituted a number of heretical writings, which the
> prosecutors had
> > > > > > > seized without asking for more; the proconsul, when informed of
> the
> > > > > > > deception refused to search the bishop's private house. Secundus
> in his
> > > > > > > reply, without blaming Mensurius, somewhat pointedly praised the
> martyrs who
> > > > > > > in his own province had been tortured and put to death for
> refusing to
> > > > > > > deliver up the Scriptures; he himself had replied to the
> officials who came
> > > > > > > to search: "I am a Christian and a bishop, not a traditor." This
> word
> > > > > > > traditor became a technical expression to designate those who
> had given up
> > > > > > > the Sacred Books, and also those who had committed the worse
> crimes of
> > > > > > > delivering up the sacred vessels and even their own brethren.
> > > > > > > It is certain that relations were strained between the
> confessors in prison
> > > > > > > at Carthage and their bishop. If we may credit the Donatist Acts
> of the
> > > > > > > forty-nine martyrs of Abitene, they broke off communion with
> Mensurius. We
> > > > > > > are informed in these Acts that Mensurius was a traditor by his
> own
> > > > > > > confession, and that his deacon, Caecilian, raged more furiously
> against the
> > > > > > > martyrs than did the persecutors themselves; he set armed men
> with whips
> > > > > > > before the door of the prison to prevent their receiving any
> succor; the
> > > > > > > food brought by the piety of the Christians was thrown to the
> dogs by these
> > > > > > > ruffians, and the drink provided was spilled in the street, so
> that the
> > > > > > > martyrs, whose condemnation the mild proconsul had deferred,
> died in prison
> > > > > > > of hunger and thirst. The story is recognized by Duchesne and
> others as
> > > > > > > exaggerated. It would be better to say that the main point is
> incredible;
> > > > > > > the prisoners would not have been allowed by the Roman officials
> to starve;
> > > > > > > the details -- that Mensurius confessed himself a traditor, that
> he
> > > > > > > prevented the succoring of the imprisoned confessors -- are
> simply founded
> > > > > > > on the letter of Mensurius to Secundus. Thus we may safely
> reject all the
> > > > > > > latter part of the Acts as fictitious. The earlier part is
> authentic: it
> > > > > > > relates how certain of the faithful of Abitene met and
> celebrated their
> > > > > > > usual Sunday service, in defiance of the emperor's edict, under
> the
> > > > > > > leadership of the priest Saturninus, for their bishop was a
> traditor and
> > > > > > > they disowned him; they were sent to Carthage, made bold replies
> when
> > > > > > > interrogated, and were imprisoned by Anulinus, who might have
> condemned them
> > > > > > > to death forthwith. The whole account is characteristic of the
> fervid
> > > > > > > African temperament. We can well imagine how the prudent
> Mensurius and his
> > > > > > > lieutenant, the deacon Caecilian, were disliked by some of the
> more
> > > > > > > excitable among their flock.
> > > > > > > We know in detail how the inquiries for sacred books were
> carried out, for
> > > > > > > the official minutes of an investigation at Cirta (afterwards
> Constantine)
> > > > > > > in Numidia are preserved. The bishop and his clergy showed
> themselves ready
> > > > > > > to give up all they had, but drew the line at betraying their
> brethren; even
> > > > > > > here their generosity was not remarkable, for they added that
> the names and
> > > > > > > addresses were well known to the officials. Theexamination was
> conducted by
> > > > > > > Munatius Felix, perpetual flamen, curator of the colony of Cirta
> Having
> > > > > > > arrived with his satellites at the bishop's house -- in Numidia
> the
> > > > > > > searching was more severe than in Proconsular Africa -- the
> bishop was found
> > > > > > > with four priests, three deacons, four subdeacons, and several
> fossores
> > > > > > > (diggers). These declared that the Scriptures were not there,
> but in the
> > > > > > > hands of the lectors; and in fact the bookcase was found to be
> empty. The
> > > > > > > clergy present refused to give the names of the lectors, saying
> they were
> > > > > > > known to the notaries; but, with the exception of the books,
> they gave in an
> > > > > > > inventory of all possessions of the church: two golden chalices,
> six of
> > > > > > > silver, six silver cruets, a silver bowl, seven silver lamps,
> two
> > > > > > > candlesticks, seven short bronze lamp-stands with lamps, eleven
> bronze lamps
> > > > > > > with chains, eighty-two women's tunics, twenty-eight veils,
> sixteen men's
> > > > > > > tunics, thirteen pairs of men's boots, forty-seven pairs of
> women's boots,
> > > > > > > nineteen countrymen's smocks. Presently the subdeacon Silvanus
> brought forth
> > > > > > > a silver box and another silver lamp, which he had found behind
> a jug. In
> > > > > > > the dining-room were four casks and seven jugs. A subdeacon
> produced a thick
> > > > > > > book. Then the houses of the lectors were visited: Eugenius gave
> up four
> > > > > > > volumes, Felix, the mosaic worker gave up five, Victorinus eight
> Projectus
> > > > > > > five large volumes and two small ones, the grammarian Victor two
> codices and
> > > > > > > five quinions, or gatherings of five leaves; Euticius of
> Caesarea declared
> > > > > > > that he had no books; the wife of Coddeo produced six volumes,
> and said that
> > > > > > > she had no more; and a search was made without further result.
> It is
> > > > > > > interesting to note that the books were all codices (in book
> form), not
> > > > > > > rolls, which had gone out of fashion in the course of the
> preceding century.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is to be hoped that such disgraceful scenes were infrequent.
> A
> > > > > > > contrasting instance of heroism is found in the story of Felix,
> Bishop of
> > > > > > > Tibiuca, who was hauled before the magistrate on the very day, 5
> June 303,
> > > > > > > when the decree was posted up in that city. He refused to give
> up any books,
> > > > > > > and was sent to Carthage. The proconsul Anulinus, unable by
> close
> > > > > > > confinement to weaken his determination, sent him on to Rome to
> Maximian
> > > > > > > Hercules.
> > > > > > > In 305, the persecution had relaxed, and it was possible to
> unite fourteen
> > > > > > > or more bishops at Cirta in order to give a successor to Paul.
> Secundus
> > > > > > > presided as primate, and in his zeal he attempted to examine the
> conduct of
> > > > > > > his colleagues. They met in a private house, for the Church had
> not yet been
> > > > > > > restored to the Christians. "We must first try ourselves", said
> the primate,
> > > > > > > "before we can venture to ordain a bishop". To Donatus of
> Mascula he said:
> > > > > > > You are said to have been a traditor." "You know", replied the
> bishop, "how
> > > > > > > Florus searched for me that I might offer incense, but God did
> not deliver
> > > > > > > me into his hands, brother. As God forgave me, do you reserve me
> to His
> > > > > > > judgment." "What then", said Secundus, "shall we say of the
> martyrs? It is
> > > > > > > because they did not give up anything that they were crowned."
> Send me to
> > > > > > > God," said Donatus, "to Him will I give an account." (In fact, a
> bishop was
> > > > > > > not amenable to penance and was properly "reserved to God" in
> this sense.)
> > > > > > > Stand on one side", said the president, and to Marinus of Aquae
> Tibilitanae
> > > > > > > he said: "You also are said to be a traditor." Marinus said: "I
> gave papers
> > > > > > > to Pollux; my books are safe." This was not satisfactory, and
> Secundus said:
> > > > > > > "Go over to that side"; then to Donatus of Calama: "You are said
> to be a
> > > > > > > traditor." "I gave up books on medicine." Secundus seems to have
> been
> > > > > > > incredulous, or at least he thought a trial was needed, for
> again he said:
> > > > > > > Stand on one side." After a gap in theActs, we read that
> Secundus turned to
> > > > > > > Victor, Bishop of Russicade: "You are said to have given up the
> Four Gospels
> > > > > > > " Victor replied: "It was the curator, Valentinus; he forced me
> to throw
> > > > > > > them into the fire. Forgive me this fault, and God will also
> forgive it."
> > > > > > > Secundus said: "Stand on one side." Secundus (after another gap)
> said to
> > > > > > > Purpurius of Limata: "You are said to have killed the two sons
> of your
> > > > > > > sister at Mileum" (Milevis). Purpurius answered with vehemence:
> Do you
> > > > > > > think I am frightened by you as the others are? What did you do
> yourself
> > > > > > > when the curator and his officials tried to make you give up the
> Scriptures?
> > > > > > > How did you manage to get off scot-free, unless you gave them
> something, or
> > > > > > > ordered something to be given? They certainly did not let you go
> for
> > > > > > > nothing! As for me I have killed and I kill those who are
> against me; do not
> > > > > > > provoke me to say anymore. You know that I do not interfere
> where I have no
> > > > > > > business." At this outburst, a nephew of Secundus said to the
> primate: "You
> > > > > > > hear what they say of you? He is ready to withdraw and make a
> schism; and
> > > > > > > the same is true of all those whom you accuse; and I know they
> are capable
> > > > > > > of turning you out and condemning you, and you alone will then
> be the
> > > > > > > heretic. What is it to you what they have done? Each must give
> his account
> > > > > > > to God." Secundus (as St. Augustine points out) had apparently
> no reply
> > > > > > > against the accusation of Purpurius, so he turned to the two or
> three
> > > > > > > bishops who remained unaccused: "What do you think?" These
> answered: "They
> > > > > > > have God to whom they must give an account." Secundus said: "You
> know and
> > > > > > > God knows. Sit down." And all replied: Deo gratis.
> > > > > > > These minutes have been preserved for us by St. Augustine. The
> later
> > > > > > > Donatists declared them forged, but not only could St. Optatus
> refer to the
> > > > > > > age of the parchment on which they were written, but they are
> made easily
> > > > > > > credible by the testimonies given beforeZenophilus in 320. Seeck
> as well as
> > > > > > > Duchesne (see below), upholds their genuineness. We hear from St
> Optatus of
> > > > > > > another fallen Numidian bishop, who refused to come to the
> council on the
> > > > > > > pretext of bad eyes, but in reality for fear his fellow-citizens
> should
> > > > > > > prove that he had offered incense, a crime of which the other
> bishops were
> > > > > > > not guilty. The bishops proceeded to ordain a bishop, and they
> chose
> > > > > > > Silvanus, who, as a subdeacon, assisted in the search for sacred
> vessels.
> > > > > > > The people of Cirta rose up against him, crying that he was a
> traditor, and
> > > > > > > demanded the appointment of a certain Donatus. But country
> people and
> > > > > > > gladiators were engaged to set him in the episcopal chair, to
> which he was
> > > > > > > carried on the back of a man named Mutus.
> > > > > > > Caecilian and Majorinus
> > > > > > > A certain Donatus of Casae Nigrae is said to have caused a
> schism in
> > > > > > > Carthage during the lifetime of Mensurius. In 311 Maxentius
> obtained
> > > > > > > dominion over Africa, and a deacon of Carthage, Felix, was
> accused of
> > > > > > > writing a defamatory letter against the tyrant. Mensurius was
> said to have
> > > > > > > concealed his deacon in his house and was summoned to Rome. He
> was acquitted
> > > > > > > but died on his return journey. Before his departure from Africa
> he had
> > > > > > > given the gold and silver ornaments of the church to the care of
> certain old
> > > > > > > men, and had also consigned an inventory of these effects to an
> aged woman,
> > > > > > > who was to deliver it to the next bishop. Maxentius gave liberty
> to the
> > > > > > > Christians, so that it was possible for an election to be held
> at Carthage.
> > > > > > > The bishop of Carthage, like the pope, was commonly consecrated
> by a
> > > > > > > neighbouring bishop, assisted by a number of others form the
> vicinity. He
> > > > > > > was primate not only of the proconsular province, but of the
> other provinces
> > > > > > > of North Africa, including Numidian, Byzacene, Tripolitana, and
> the two
> > > > > > > Mauretanias, which were all governed by the vicar of prefects.
> In each of
> > > > > > > these provinces the local primacy was attached to no town, but
> was held by
> > > > > > > the senior bishop, until St. Gregory the Great made the office
> elective. St.
> > > > > > > Optatus implies that the bishops of Numidia, many of whom were
> at no great
> > > > > > > distance from Carthage, had expected that they would have a
> voice in the
> > > > > > > election; but two priests, Botrus and Caelestius, who each
> expected to be
> > > > > > > elected, had managed that only a small number of bishops should
> be present.
> > > > > > > Caecilian, the deacon who had been so obnoxious to the martyrs,
> was duly
> > > > > > > chosen by the whole people, placed in the chair of Mensurius,
> and
> > > > > > > consecrated by Felix, Bishop of Aptonga or Abtughi. The old men
> who had
> > > > > > > charge of the treasure of the church were obliged to give it up;
> they joined
> > > > > > > with Botrus and Caelestius in refusing to acknowledge the new
> bishop. They
> > > > > > > were assisted by a rich lady named Lucilla, who had a grudge
> against
> > > > > > > Caecilian because he had rebuked her habit of kissing the bone
> of an
> > > > > > > uncanonized (non vindicatus) martyr immediately before receiving
> Holy
> > > > > > > Communion. Probably we have here again a martyr whose death was
> due to his
> > > > > > > own ill-regulated fervour.
> > > > > > > Secundus, as the nearest primate, came with his suffragans to
> Carthage to
> > > > > > > judge the affair, and in a great council of seventy bishops
> declared the
> > > > > > > ordination of Caecilian to be invalid, as having been performed
> by a
> > > > > > > traditor. A new bishop was consecrated. Majorinus, who belonged
> to the
> > > > > > > household of Lucilla and had been a lector in the deaconry of
> Caecilian.
> > > > > > > That lady provided the sum of 400 folles (more than 11,000
> dollars),
> > > > > > > nominally for the poor; but all of it went into the pockets of
> the bishops,
> > > > > > > one-quarter of the sum being seized by Purpurius of Limata.
> Caecilian had
> > > > > > > possession of the basilica and the cathedra of Cyprian, and the
> people were
> > > > > > > with him, so that he refused to appear before the council. "If I
> am not
> > > > > > > properly consecrated" , he said ironically, "let them treat me
> as a deacon,
> > > > > > > and lay hands on me afresh, and not on another." On this reply
> being brought
> > > > > > > Purpurius cried: "Let him come here, and instead of laying on
> him, we will
> > > > > > > break his head in penance." No wonder that the action of this
> council, which
> > > > > > > sent letters throughout Africa, had a great influence. But at
> Carthage it
> > > > > > > was well known that Caecilian was the choice of the people, and
> it was not
> > > > > > > believed that Felix of Aptonga had given up the Sacred Books.
> Rome and Italy
> > > > > > > had given Caecilian their communion. The Church of the moderate
> Mensurius
> > > > > > > did not hold that consecration by a traditor was invalid, or
> even that it
> > > > > > > was illicit, if the traditor was still in lawful possession of
> his see. The
> > > > > > > council of Secundus, on the contrary, declared that a traditor
> could not act
> > > > > > > as a bishop, and that any who were in communion with traditors
> were cut off
> > > > > > > from the Church. They called themselves the Church of the
> martyrs, and
> > > > > > > declared that all who were in communion with public sinners like
> Caecilian
> > > > > > > and Felix were necessarily excommunicate.
> > > > > > > The condemnation by Pope Melchiades
> > > > > > > Very soon there were many cities having two bishops, the one in
> communion
> > > > > > > with Caecilian, the other with Majorinus. Constantine, after
> defeating
> > > > > > > Maxentius (28 October, 312) and becoming master of Rome, showed
> himself a
> > > > > > > Christian in his acts. He wrote to Anulinus, proconsul of Africa
> (was he
> > > > > > > same as the mild proconsul of 303?), restoring the churches to
> Catholics,
> > > > > > > and exempting clerics of the "Catholic Church of which Caecilian
> is
> > > > > > > president" from civil functions (Eusebius, Church History X.5.15
> and X.7.2).
> > > > > > > he also wrote to Caecilian (ibid., X, vi, 1) sending him an
> order for 3000
> > > > > > > folles to be distributed in Africa, Numidia, and Mauretania; if
> more was
> > > > > > > needed, the bishop must apply for more. He added that he had
> heard of
> > > > > > > turbulent persons who sought to corrupt the Church; he had
> ordered the
> > > > > > > proconsul Anulinus, and the vicar of prefects to restrain them,
> and
> > > > > > > Caecilian was to appeal to these officials if necessary. The
> opposing party
> > > > > > > lost no time. A few days after the publication of these letters,
> their
> > > > > > > delegates, accompanied by a mob, brought to Anulinus two bundles
> of
> > > > > > > documents, containing the complaints of their party against
> Caecilian, to be
> > > > > > > forwarded to the emperor. St. Optatus has preserved a few words
> from their
> > > > > > > petition, in which Constantine is begged to grant judges from
> Gaul, where
> > > > > > > under his father's rule there had been no persecution, and
> therefore no
> > > > > > > traditors. Constantine knew the Church's constitution too well
> to comply and
> > > > > > > thereby make Gallic bishops judges of the primates of Africa. He
> at once
> > > > > > > referred the matter to the pope, expressing his intention,
> laudable, if too
> > > > > > > sanguine, of allowing no schisms in the Catholic Church. That
> the African
> > > > > > > schismatics might have no ground of complaint, he ordered three
> of the chief
> > > > > > > bishops of Gaul, Reticius of Autun, Maternus of Cologne, and
> Marinus of
> > > > > > > Arles, to repair to Rome, to assist at the trial. He ordered
> Caecilian to
> > > > > > > come thither with ten bishops of his accusers and ten of his own
> communion.
> > > > > > > The memorials against Caecilian he sent to the pope, who would
> know, he says
> > > > > > > what procedure to employ in order to conclude the whole matter
> with justice
> > > > > > > (Eusebius, Church History X.5.18). Pope Melchiades summoned
> fifteen Italian
> > > > > > > bishops to sit with him. From this time forward we find that in
> all
> > > > > > > important matters the popes issue their decretal letters from a
> small
> > > > > > > council of bishops, and there are traces of this custom even
> before this.
> > > > > > > The ten Donatist bishops (for we may now give the party its
> eventual name)
> > > > > > > were headed by a Bishop Donatus of Casae Nigrae. It was assumed
> by Optatus,
> > > > > > > Augustine, and the other Catholic apologists that this was
> Donatus the
> > > > > > > Great", the successor of Majorinus as schismatic Bishop of
> Carthage. But the
> > > > > > > Donatists of St. Augustine's time were anxious to deny this, as
> they did not
> > > > > > > wish to admit that their protagonist had been condemned, and the
> Catholics
> > > > > > > at the conference of 411 granted them the existence of a Donatus
> Bishop of
> > > > > > > Casae Nigrae, who had distinguished himself by active hostility
> to Caecilian
> > > > > > > Modern authorities agree in accepting this view. But it seems
> inconceivable
> > > > > > > that, if Majorinus was still alive, he should not have been
> obliged to go to
> > > > > > > Rome. It would be very strange, further, that a Donatus of Casae
> Nigrae
> > > > > > > should appear as the leader of the party, without any
> explanation, unless
> > > > > > > Casae Nigrae was simply the birthplace of Donatus the Great. If
> we assume
> > > > > > > that Majorinus had died and had been succeeded by Donatus the
> Great just
> > > > > > > before the trial at Rome, we shall understand why Majorinus is
> never again
> > > > > > > mentioned. The accusations against Caecilian in the memorial
> were
> > > > > > > disregarded, as being anonymous and unproved. Thewitnesses
> brought from
> > > > > > > Africa acknowledged that they had nothing against him. Donatus,
> on the other
> > > > > > > hand, was convicted by his own confession of having rebaptized
> and of having
> > > > > > > laid his hands in penance on bishops -- this was forbidden by
> ecclesiastical
> > > > > > > law. On the third day the unanimous sentence was pronounced by
> Melchiades:
> > > > > > > Caecilian was to be maintained in ecclestiastical communion. If
> Donatist
> > > > > > > bishops returned to the Church, in a place where there were two
> rival
> > > > > > > bishops, the junior was to retire and be provided with another
> see. The
> > > > > > > Donatists were furious. A hundred years later their successor
> declared that
> > > > > > > Pope Melchiades was himself a traditor, and that on this account
> they had
> > > > > > > not accepted his decision; though there is no trace of this
> having been
> > > > > > > alleged at the time. But the nineteen bishops at Rome were
> contrasted with
> > > > > > > the seventy bishops of the Cathaginian Council, and a fresh
> judgment was
> > > > > > > demanded.
> > > > > > > The Council of Arles
> > > > > > > Constantine was angry, but he saw that the party was powerful in
> Africa, and
> > > > > > > he summoned a council of the whole West (that is, of the whole
> of his actual
> > > > > > > dominions) to meet at Arles on 1 August, 314. Melchiades was
> dead, and his
> > > > > > > successor, St. Sylvester, thought it unbecoming to leave Rome,
> thus setting
> > > > > > > an example which he repeated in the case of Nicaea, and which
> his successors
> > > > > > > followed in the cases of Sardica, Rimini, and the Eastern
> oecumenical
> > > > > > > councils. Between forty and fifty sees were represented at the
> council by
> > > > > > > bishops or proxies; the Bishops of London, York, and Lincoln
> were there. St.
> > > > > > > Sylvester sent legates. The council condemned the Donatists and
> drew up a
> > > > > > > number of canons; it reported its proceedings in a letter to the
> pope, which
> > > > > > > is extant; but, as in the case of Nicaea, no detailed Acts
> remain, nor are
> > > > > > > any such mentioned by the ancients. The Fathers in their letter
> salute
> > > > > > > Sylvester, saying that he had rightly decided not to quit the
> spot "where
> > > > > > > the Apostles daily sit in judgment"; had he been with them, they
> might
> > > > > > > perhaps have dealt more severely with the heretics. Among the
> canons, one
> > > > > > > forbids rebaptism (which was still practised in Africa), another
> declares
> > > > > > > that those who falsely accuse their brethren shall have
> communion only at
> > > > > > > the hour of death. On the other hand, traditors are to be
> refused communion,
> > > > > > > but only when their fault has been proved by public official
> acts; those
> > > > > > > whom they have ordained are to retain their positions. The
> council produced
> > > > > > > some effect in Africa, but the main body of the Donatists was
> immovable.
> > > > > > > They appealed from the council to the emperor. Constantine was
> horrified: "O
> > > > > > > insolent madness!" he wrote, "they appeal from heaven to earth,
> from Jesus
> > > > > > > Christ to a man."
> > > > > > > The policy of Constantine
> > > > > > > The emperor retained the Donatist envoys in Gaul, after at first
> dismissing
> > > > > > > them. He seems to have thought of sending for Caecilian, then of
> granting a
> > > > > > > full examination in Africa. The case of Felix of Aptonga was in
> fact
> > > > > > > examined by his order at Carthage in February, 315 (St.
> Augustine is
> > > > > > > probably wrong in giving 314). The minutes of the proceedings
> have come down
> > > > > > > to us in a mutilated state; they are referred to by St. Optatus,
> who
> > > > > > > appended them to his book with other documents, and they are
> frequently
> > > > > > > cited by St. Augustine. It was shown that the letter which the
> Donatists put
> > > > > > > forward as proving the crime of Felix, had been interpolated by
> a certain
> > > > > > > Ingentius; this was established by the confession of Ingentius,
> as well as
> > > > > > > by the witness of Alfius, the writer of the letter. It was
> proved that Felix
> > > > > > > was actually absent at the time the search for Sacred Books was
> made at
> > > > > > > Aptonga. Constantine eventually summoned Caecilian and his
> opponents to Rome
> > > > > > > but Caecilian, for some unknown reason, did not appear.
> Caecilian and
> > > > > > > Donatus the Great (who was now, at all events, bishop) were
> called to Milan,
> > > > > > > where Constantine heard both sides with great care. He declared
> that
> > > > > > > Caecilian was innocent and an excellent bishop (Augustine,
> Contra Cresconium
> > > > > > > III lxxi). He retained both in Italy, however, while he sent two
> bishops,
> > > > > > > Eunomius and Olympius, to Africa, with an idea of putting
> Donatus and
> > > > > > > Caecilian aside, and substituting a new bishop, to be agreed
> upon by all
> > > > > > > parties. It is to be presumed that Caecilian and Donatus had
> assented to
> > > > > > > this course; but the violence of the sectaries made it
> impossible to carry
> > > > > > > it out. Eunomius and Olympius declared at Carthage that the
> Catholic Church
> > > > > > > was that which is diffused throughout the world and that the
> sentence
> > > > > > > pronounced against the Donatists could not be annulled. They
> communicated
> > > > > > > with the clergy of Caecilian and returned to Italy. Donatus went
> back to
> > > > > > > Carthage, and Caecilian, seeing this, felt himself free to do
> the same.
> > > > > > > Finally Constantine ordered that the churches which the
> Donatists had taken
> > > > > > > should be given to the Catholics. Their other meeting-places
> were
> > > > > > > confiscated. Those who were convicted (of calumny?) lost their
> goods.
> > > > > > > Evictions were carried out by the military. An ancient sermon on
> the passion
> > > > > > > of the Donatist "martyrs", Donatus and Advocatus, describes such
> scenes. In
> > > > > > > one of them a regular massacre occurred, and a bishop was among
> the slain,
> > > > > > > if we may trust this curious document. The Donatists were proud
> of this
> > > > > > > persecution of Caecilian", which "the Pure" suffered at the
> hands of the
> > > > > > > Church of the Traditors". The Comes Leontius and the Dux
> Ursacius were the
> > > > > > > special objects of their indignation.
> > > > > > > In 320 came revelations unpleasant to the "Pure". Nundinarius, a
> deacon of
> > > > > > > Cirta, had a quarrel with his bishop, Silvanus, who caused him
> to be stoned
> > > > > > > -- so he said in his complaint to certain Numidian bishops, in
> which he
> > > > > > > threatened that if they did not use their influence in his
> behalf with
> > > > > > > Silvanus, he would tell what he knew of them. As he got no
> satisfaction he
> > > > > > > brought the matter before Zenophilus, the consular of Numidia.
> The minutes
> > > > > > > have come to us in a fragmentary form in the appendix of Optatus
> under the
> > > > > > > title of "Gesta apud Zenophilum". Nundinarius produced letters
> from
> > > > > > > Purpurius and other bishops to Silvanus and to the people of
> Cirta, trying
> > > > > > > to have peace made with the inconvenient deacon. The minutes of
> the search
> > > > > > > at Cirta, which we have already cited, were read and witnesses
> were called
> > > > > > > to establish their accuracy, including two of the fossores then
> present and
> > > > > > > a lector, Victor the grammarian. It was shown no only that
> Silvanus was a
> > > > > > > traditor, but that he had assisted Purpurius, together with two
> priests and
> > > > > > > a deacon, in the theft of certain casks of vinegar belonging to
> the treasury
> > > > > > > which were in the temple of Serapis. Silvanus had ordained a
> priest for the
> > > > > > > sum of 20 folles (500 to 600 dollars). It was established that
> none of the
> > > > > > > money given by Lucilla had reached the poor for whom it was
> ostensibly given
> > > > > > > Thus Silvanus, one of the mainstays of the "Pure" Church, which
> declared
> > > > > > > that to communicate with any traditor was to be outside the
> Church, was
> > > > > > > himself proved to be a traditor. He was exiled by the consular
> for robbing
> > > > > > > the treasury, for obtaining money under false pretences, and for
> getting
> > > > > > > himself made bishop by violence. The Donatists later preferred
> to say that
> > > > > > > he was banished for refusing to communicate with the
> Caecilianists" , and
> > > > > > > Cresconius even spoke of "the persecution of Zenophilus". But it
> should have
> > > > > > > been clear to all that the consecrators of Majorinus had called
> their
> > > > > > > opponents traditors in order to cover their own delinquencies.
> > > > > > > The Donatist party owed its success in great part to the ability
> of its
> > > > > > > leader Donatus, the successor of Majorinus. He appears to have
> really
> > > > > > > merited the title of "the Great" by his eloquence and force of
> character.
> > > > > > > His writings are lost. His influence with his party was
> extraordinary. St.
> > > > > > > Augustine frequently declaims against his arrogance and the
> impiety with
> > > > > > > which he was almost worshipped by his followers. In his lifetime
> he is said
> > > > > > > to have greatly enjoyed the adulation he received, and after
> death he was
> > > > > > > counted as a martyr and miracles were ascribed to him.
> > > > > > > In 321 Constantine relaxed his vigorous measures, having found
> that they did
> > > > > > > not produce the peace he had hoped for, and he weakly begged the
> Catholics
> > > > > > > to suffer the Donatists with patience. This was not easy, for
> the
> > > > > > > schismatics broke out into violence. At Cirta, Silvanus having
> returned,
> > > > > > > they seized the basilica which the emperor had built for the
> Catholics. They
> > > > > > > would not give it up, and Constantine found no better expedient
> that to
> > > > > > > build another. Throughout Africa, but above all in Numidia, they
> were
> > > > > > > numerous. They taught that in all the rest of the world the
> Catholic Church
> > > > > > > had perished, through having communicated with the traditor
> Caecilian; their
> > > > > > > sect alone was the true Church. If a Catholic came into their
> churches, they
> > > > > > > drove him out, and washed with salt the pavement where he had
> stood. Any
> > > > > > > Catholic who joined them was forced to be rebaptized. They
> asserted that
> > > > > > > their own bishops and ministers were without fault, else their
> ministrations
> > > > > > > would be invalid. But in fact they were convicted of drunkenness
> and other
> > > > > > > sins. St. Augustine tells us on the authority of Tichonius that
> the
> > > > > > > Donatists held a council of two hundred and seventy bishops in
> which they
> > > > > > > discussed for seventy-five days the question of rebaptism; they
> finally
> > > > > > > decided that in cases where traditors refused to be rebaptized
> they should
> > > > > > > be communicated with in spite of this; and theDonatist bishops
> of Mauretania
> > > > > > > did not rebaptize traditors until the time of Macarius. Outside
> Africa the
> > > > > > > Donatists had a bishop residing on the property of an adherent
> in Spain, and
> > > > > > > at an early period of the schism they made a bishop for their
> small
> > > > > > > congregation in Rome, which met, it seems, on a hill outside the
> city, and
> > > > > > > had the name of "Montenses". This antipapal "succession with a
> beginning"
> > > > > > > was frequently ridiculed by Catholic writers. The series
> included Felix,
> > > > > > > Boniface, Encolpius, Macrobius (c. 370), Lucian, Claudian (c.
> 378), and
> > > > > > > again Felix in 411.
> > > > > > > The Circumcellions
> > > > > > > The date of the first appearance of the Circumcellions is
> uncertain, but
> > > > > > > probably they began before the death of Constantine. They were
> mostly rustic
> > > > > > > enthusiasts, who knew no Latin, but spoke Punic; it has been
> suggested that
> > > > > > > they may have been of Berber blood. They joined the ranks of the
> Donatists,
> > > > > > > and were called by them agnostici and "soldiers of Christ", but
> in fact were
> > > > > > > brigands. Troops of them were to be met in all parts of Africa.
> They had no
> > > > > > > regular occupation, but ran about armed, like madmen. They used
> no swords,
> > > > > > > on the ground that St. Peter had been told to put his sword into
> its sheath;
> > > > > > > but they did continual acts of violence with clubs, which they
> called
> > > > > > > Israelites". They bruised their victims without killing them,
> and left them
> > > > > > > to die. In St. Augustine's time, however, they took to swords
> and all sorts
> > > > > > > of weapons; they rushed about accompanied by unmarried women,
> played, and
> > > > > > > drank. They battle-cry was Deo laudes, and no bandits were more
> terrible to
> > > > > > > meet. They frequently sought death, counting suicide as
> martyrdom. They were
> > > > > > > especially fond of flinging themselves from precipices; more
> rarely they
> > > > > > > sprang into the water or fire. Even women caught the infection,
> and those
> > > > > > > who had sinned would cast themselves from the cliffs, to atone
> for their
> > > > > > > fault. Sometimes the Circumcellions sought death at the hands of
> others,
> > > > > > > either by paying men to kill them, by threatening to kill a
> passer-by if he
> > > > > > > would not kill them, or by their violence inducing magistrates
> to have them
> > > > > > > executed. While paganism still flourished, they would come in
> vast crowds to
> > > > > > > any great sacrifice, not to destroy the idols, but to be
> martyred. Theodoret
> > > > > > > says a Circumcellion was accustomed to announce his intention of
> becoming a
> > > > > > > martyr long before the time, in order to be well treated and fed
> like a
> > > > > > > beast for slaughter. He relates an amusing story (Haer. Fab., IV
> vi) to
> > > > > > > which St. Augustine also refers. A number of these fanatics,
> fattened like
> > > > > > > pheasants, met a young man and offered him a drawn sword to
> smite them with,
> > > > > > > threatening to murder him if he refused. He pretended to fear
> that when he
> > > > > > > had killed a few, the rest might change their minds and avenge
> the deaths of
> > > > > > > their fellows; and he insisted that they must all be bound. They
> agreed to
> > > > > > > this; when they were defenceless, the young man gave each of
> them a beating
> > > > > > > and went his way.
> > > > > > > When in controversy with Catholics, the Donatist bishops were
> not proud of
> > > > > > > their supporters. They declared that self-precipitation from a
> cliff had
> > > > > > > been forbidden in the councils. Yet the bodies of these suicides
> were
> > > > > > > sacrilegiously honoured, and crowds celebrated their
> anniversaries. Their
> > > > > > > bishops could not but conform, and they were often glad enough
> of the strong
> > > > > > > arms of the Circumcellions. Theodoret, soon after St. Augustine
> s death,
> > > > > > > knew of no other Donatists than the Circumcellions; and these
> were the
> > > > > > > typical Donatists in the eyes of all outside Africa. They were
> especially
> > > > > > > dangerous to the Catholic clergy, whose houses they attacked and
> pillaged.
> > > > > > > They beat and wounded them, put lime and vinegar on their eyes,
> and even
> > > > > > > forced them to be rebaptized. Under Axidus andFasir, "the
> leaders of the
> > > > > > > Saints" in Numidia, property and roads were unsafe, debtors were
> protected,
> > > > > > > slaves were set in their masters' carriages, and the masters
> made to run
> > > > > > > before them. At length, the Donatist bishops invited a general
> named
> > > > > > > Taurinus to repress these extravagances. He met with resistance
> in a place
> > > > > > > named Octava, and the altars and tablets to be seen there in St.
> Optatus's
> > > > > > > time testified to the veneration given to the Circumcellions who
> were slain;
> > > > > > > but their bishops denied them the honour due to martyrs. It
> seems that in
> > > > > > > 336-7 the proefectus proetorio of Italy, Gregory took some
> measures against
> > > > > > > the Donatists, for St. Optatus tells us that Donatus wrote him a
> letter
> > > > > > > beginning: "Gregory, stain on the senate and disgrace to the
> prefects".
> > > > > > > The "persecution" of Macarius
> > > > > > > When Constantine became master of the East by defeating Licinius
> in 323, he
> > > > > > > was prevented by the rise of Arianism in the East from sending,
> as he had
> > > > > > > hoped, Eastern bishops to Africa, to adjust the differences
> between the
> > > > > > > Donatists and the Catholics. Caecilian of Carthage was present
> at the
> > > > > > > Council of Nicea in 325, and his successor, Gratus, was at that
> of Sardica
> > > > > > > in 342. The conciliabulum of the Easterns on that occasion wrote
> a letter to
> > > > > > > Donatus, as though he were the true Bishop of Carthage; but the
> Arians
> > > > > > > failed to gain the support of the Donatists, who looked upon the
> whole East
> > > > > > > as cut off from the Church, which survived in Africa alone. The
> Emperor
> > > > > > > Constans was an anxious as his father to give peace to Africa In
> 347 he sent
> > > > > > > thither two commissioners, Paulus and Macarius, with large sums
> of money for
> > > > > > > distribution. Donatus naturally saw in this an attempt to win
> over his
> > > > > > > adherents to the Church by bribery; he received the envoys with
> insolence:
> > > > > > > What has the emperor to do with the Church?" said he, and he
> forbade his
> > > > > > > people to accept any largess from Constans. In most parts,
> however, the
> > > > > > > friendly mission seems to have been not unfavourably received.
> But atBagai
> > > > > > > in Numidia the bishop, Donatus, assembled the Circumcellions of
> the
> > > > > > > neighbourhood, who had already been excited by their bishops.
> Macarius was
> > > > > > > obliged to ask for the protection of the military. The
> Circumcellions
> > > > > > > attacked them, and killed two or three soldiers; the troops then
> became
> > > > > > > uncontrollable, and slew some of the Donatists. This unfortunate
> incident
> > > > > > > was thereafter continually thrown in the teeth of the Catholics,
> and they
> > > > > > > were nicknamed Macarians by the Donatists, who declared that
> Donatus of
> > > > > > > Bagai had been precipitated from a rock, and that another bishop
> Marculus,
> > > > > > > had been thrown into a well. The existing Acts of two other
> Donatist martyrs
> > > > > > > of 347, Maximian and Isaac, are preserved; they apparently
> belong to
> > > > > > > Carthage, and are attributed by Harnack to the antipope
> Macrobius. It seems
> > > > > > > that after violence had begun, the envoys ordered the Donatists
> to unite
> > > > > > > with the Church whether they willed or no. Many of the bishops
> took flight
> > > > > > > with their partisans; a few joined the Catholics; the rest were
> banished.
> > > > > > > Donatus the Great died in exile. A Donatist named Vitellius
> composed a book
> > > > > > > to show that the servants of God are hated by the world.
> > > > > > > A solemn Mass was celebrated in each place where the union was
> completed,
> > > > > > > and the Donatists set about a rumour that images (obviously of
> the emperor)
> > > > > > > were to be placed in the altar and worshipped. As nothing of the
> sort was
> > > > > > > found to be done, and as the envoys merely made a speech in
> favour of unity,
> > > > > > > it seems that the reunion was effected with less violence than
> might have
> > > > > > > been expected. The Catholics and their bishops praised God for
> the peace
> > > > > > > that ensued, though they declared that they had no
> responsibility for the
> > > > > > > action of Paulus and Macarius. In the following year Gratus, the
> Catholic
> > > > > > > Bishop of Carthage, held a council, in which the reiteration of
> baptism was
> > > > > > > forbidden, while, to please the rallied Donatists, traditors
> were condemned
> > > > > > > anew. It was forbidden to honour suicides as martyrs.
> > > > > > > The restoration of Donatism by Julian
> > > > > > > The peace was happy for Africa, and the forcible means by which
> it was
> > > > > > > obtained were justified by the violence of the sectaries. But
> the accession
> > > > > > > of Julian the Apostate in 361 changed the face of affairs.
> Delighted to
> > > > > > > throw Christianity into confusion, Julian allowed the Catholic
> bishops who
> > > > > > > had been exiled by Constantius to return to the sees which the
> Arians were
> > > > > > > occupying. The Donatists, who had been banished by Constans,
> were similarly
> > > > > > > allowed to return at their own petition, and received back their
> basilicas.
> > > > > > > Scenes of violence were the result of this policy both in the
> East and the
> > > > > > > West. "Your fury", wrote St. Optatus, "returned to Africa at the
> same moment
> > > > > > > that the devil was set free", for the same emperor restored
> supremacy to
> > > > > > > paganism and the Donatists to Africa The decree of Julian was
> considered so
> > > > > > > discreditable to them, that the Emperor Honorius in 405 had it
> posted up
> > > > > > > throughout Africa for their shame. St. Optatus gives a vehement
> catalogue of
> > > > > > > the excesses committed by the Donatists on their return. They
> invaded the
> > > > > > > basilicas with arms; they committed so many murders that a
> report of them
> > > > > > > was sent to the emperor. Under the orders of two bishops, a
> party attacked
> > > > > > > the basilica of Lemellef; they stripped off the roof, pelted
> with tiles the
> > > > > > > deacons who were round the altar, and killed two of them. In
> Maruetania
> > > > > > > riots signalized the return of the Donatists. In Numidia two
> bishops availed
> > > > > > > themselves of the complaisance of the magistrates to throw a
> peaceful
> > > > > > > population into confusion, expelling the faithful, wounding the
> men, and not
> > > > > > > sparing the women and children. Since they did not admit the
> validity of the
> > > > > > > sacraments administered by traditors, when they seized the
> churches they
> > > > > > > cast the Holy Eucharist to the dogs; but the dogs, inflamed with
> madness,
> > > > > > > attacked their own masters. An ampulla of chrism thrown out of a
> window was
> > > > > > > found unbroken on the rocks. Two bishops were guilty of rape;
> one of these
> > > > > > > seized the aged Catholic bishop and condemned him to public
> penance. All
> > > > > > > Catholics whom they could force to join their party were made
> penitents,
> > > > > > > even clerics of every rank, and children, contrary to the law of
> the Church.
> > > > > > > some for a year, some for a month, some but for a day. In taking
> possession
> > > > > > > of a basilica, they destroyed the altar, or removed it, or at
> least scraped
> > > > > > > the surface. They sometimes broke up the chalices, and sold the
> materials.
> > > > > > > They washed pavements, walls, and columns. Not content with
> recovering their
> > > > > > > churches, they employed pagan functionaries to obtain for them
> possession of
> > > > > > > the sacred vessels, furniture, altar-linen, and especially the
> books (how
> > > > > > > did they purify the book? asks St. Optatus), sometimes leaving
> the Catholic
> > > > > > > congregation with no books at all. The cemeteries were closed to
> the
> > > > > > > Catholic dead.
> > > > > > > The revolt of Firmus, a Mauretanian chieftain who defied the
> Roman power and
> > > > > > > eventually assumed the style of emperor (366-72), was
> undoubtedly supported
> > > > > > > by many Donatists. The imperial laws against them were
> strengthened by
> > > > > > > Valentinian in 373 and by Gratian, who wrote in 377 to the vicar
> of prefects
> > > > > > > Flavian (himself a Donatist), ordering all the basilicas of the
> schismatics
> > > > > > > to be given up to the Catholics. St. Augustine shows that even
> the churches
> > > > > > > which the Donatists themselves had built were included. The same
> emperor
> > > > > > > required Claudian, the Donatist bishop at Rome, to return to
> Africa; as he
> > > > > > > refused to obey, a Roman council had him driven a hundred miles
> from the
> > > > > > > city. It is probable that the Catholic Bishop of Carthage,
> Genethlius,
> > > > > > > caused the laws to be mildly administered in Africa.
> > > > > > > St. Optatus
> > > > > > > The Catholic champion, St. Optatus, Bishop of Milevis, published
> his great
> > > > > > > work "De schismate Donatistarum" in answer to that of the
> Donatist Bishop of
> > > > > > > Carthage, Parmenianus, under Valentinian and Valens, 364-375 (so
> St. Jerome)
> > > > > > > Optatus himself tells us that he was writing after the death of
> Julian
> > > > > > > (363) and more than sixty years after the beginning of the
> schism (he means
> > > > > > > the persecution of 303). The form which we possess is a second
> edition,
> > > > > > > brought up to date by the author after the accession of Pope
> Siricius (Dec.,
> > > > > > > 384), with a seventh book added to the original six. In the
> first book he
> > > > > > > describes the origin and growth of the schism; in the second he
> shows the
> > > > > > > notes of the true Church; in the third he defends the Catholics
> from the
> > > > > > > charge of persecuting, with especial reference to the days of
> Macarius. In
> > > > > > > the fourth book he refutes Parmenianus' s proofs from Scripture
> that the
> > > > > > > sacrifice of a sinner is polluted. In the fifth book he shows
> the validity
> > > > > > > of baptism even when conferred by sinners, for it is conferred
> by Christ,
> > > > > > > the minister being the instrument only. This is the first
> important
> > > > > > > statement of the doctrine that the grace of the sacraments is
> derived from
> > > > > > > the opus operatum of Christ independently of the worthiness of
> the minister.
> > > > > > > In the sixth book he describes the violence of the Donatists and
> the
> > > > > > > sacrilegious way in which they had treated Catholic altars. In
> the seventh
> > > > > > > book he treats chiefly of unity and of reunion, and returns to
> the subject
> > > > > > > of Macarius.
> > > > > > > He calls Parmenianus "brother", and wishes to treat the
> Donatists as
> > > > > > > brethren, since they were not heretics. Like some other Fathers,
> he holds
> > > > > > > that only pagans and heretics go to hell; schismatics and all
> Catholics will
> > > > > > > eventually be saved after a necessary purgatory. This is the
> more curious,
> > > > > > > because before him and after him in Africa Cyprian and Augustine
> both taught
> > > > > > > that schism is as bad as heresy, if not worse. St. Optatus was
> much
> > > > > > > venerated by St. Augustine and later by St. Fulgentius. He
> writes with
> > > > > > > vehemence, sometimes with violence, in spite of his
> protestations of
> > > > > > > friendliness; but he is carried away by his indignation. His
> style is
> > > > > > > forcible and effective, often concise and epigrammatic. To this
> work he
> > > > > > > appended a collection of documents containing the evidence for
> thehistory he
> > > > > > > had related. This dossier had certainly been formed much earlier
> at all
> > > > > > > events before the peace of 347, and not long after the latest
> document it
> > > > > > > contains, which is dated Feb., 330; the rest are not later than
> 321, and may
> > > > > > > possibly have been put together as early as that year.
> Unfortunately these
> > > > > > > importanthistorical testimonies have come down to us only in a
> single
> > > > > > > mutilated manuscript, the archetype of which was also incomplete
> The
> > > > > > > collection was freely used at the conference of 411 and is often
> quoted at
> > > > > > > some length by St. Augustine, who has preserved many interesting
> portions
> > > > > > > which would otherwise be unknown to us.
> > > > > > > The Maximianists
> > > > > > > Before Augustine took up the mantle of Optatus together with a
> double
> > > > > > > portion of his spirit, the Catholics had gained new and
> victorious arguments
> > > > > > > from the divisions among the Donatists themselves. Like so many
> other
> > > > > > > schisms, this schism bred schisms within itself. In Mauretania
> and Numidia
> > > > > > > these separated sects were so numerous that the Donatists
> themselves could
> > > > > > > not name them all. We hear of Urbanists; of Claudianists, who
> were
> > > > > > > reconciled to the main body by Primianus of Carthage; of
> Rogatists, a
> > > > > > > Mauretanian sect, of mild character, because no Circumcellion
> belonged to it
> > > > > > > the Rogatists were severely punished whenever the Donatists
> could induce
> > > > > > > the magistrates to do so, and were also persecuted by Optatus of
> Timgad. But
> > > > > > > the most famous sectaries were the Maximianists, for the story
> of their
> > > > > > > separation from the Donatists reproduces with strange exactitude
> that of the
> > > > > > > withdrawal of the Donatists themselves from the communion of the
> Church; and
> > > > > > > the conduct of the Donatists towards them was so inconsistent
> with their
> > > > > > > avowed principles, that it became in the skilled hands of
> Augustine the most
> > > > > > > effective weapon of all his controversial armoury.
> > > > > > > Primianus, Donatist Bishop of Carthage, excommunicated the
> deacon Maximianus
> > > > > > > The latter (who was, like Majorinus, supported by a lady) got
> together a
> > > > > > > council of forty-three bishops, who summoned Primianus to appear
> before them
> > > > > > > The primate refused, insulted their envoys, tried to have them
> prevented
> > > > > > > from celebrating the Sacred Mysteries, and had stones thrown at
> them in the
> > > > > > > street. The council summoned him before a greater council, which
> met to the
> > > > > > > number of a hundred bishops at Cebarsussum in June, 393.
> Primianus was
> > > > > > > deposed; all clerics were to leave his communion within eight
> days; if they
> > > > > > > should delay till after Christmas, they would not be permitted
> to return to
> > > > > > > the Church even after penance; the laity were allowed until the
> following
> > > > > > > Easter, under the same penalty. A new bishop of Carthage was
> appointed in
> > > > > > > the person of Maximian himself, and was consecrated by twelve
> bishops. The
> > > > > > > partisans of Primianus were rebaptized, if they had been
> baptized after the
> > > > > > > permitted delay. Primianus stood out, and demanded to be judged
> by a
> > > > > > > Numidian council; three hundred and ten bishops met at Bagai in
> April, 394;
> > > > > > > the primate did not take the place of an accused person, but
> himself
> > > > > > > presided. He was of course acquitted, and the Maximianists were
> condemned
> > > > > > > without a hearing. All but the twelve consecrators and their
> abettors among
> > > > > > > the clergy of Carthage were given till Christmas to return;
> after this
> > > > > > > period they would be obliged to do penance. This decree,
> composed in
> > > > > > > eloquent style by Emeritus of Caesarea, and adopted by
> acclamation, made the
> > > > > > > Donatists hence-forward ridiculous through their having
> readmitted
> > > > > > > schismatics without penance. Maximian's church was razed to the
> ground, and
> > > > > > > after the term of grace had elapsed, the Donatists persecuted
> the
> > > > > > > unfortunate Maximianists, representing themselves as Catholics,
> and
> > > > > > > demanding that the magistrates should enforce against the new
> sectaries the
> > > > > > > very laws which Catholics emperors had drawn up against Donatism
> Their
> > > > > > > influence enabled them to do this, for they were still far more
> numerous
> > > > > > > than the Catholics, and the magistrates must often have been of
> their party.
> > > > > > > In the reception of those who returned from the party of
> Maximian they were
> > > > > > > yet more fatally inconsequent. The rule was theoretically
> adhered to that
> > > > > > > all who had been baptized in the schism must be rebaptized; but
> if a bishop
> > > > > > > returned, he and his whole flock were admitted without rebaptism
> This was
> > > > > > > allowed even in the case of two of the consecrators of Maximian,
> > > > > > > Praetextatus of Assur and Felixianus of Musti, after the
> proconsul had
> > > > > > > vainly tried to expel them from their sees, and although a
> Donatist bishop,
> > > > > > > Rogatus, had already been appointed at Assur. In another case
> the party of
> > > > > > > Primianus was more consistent. Salvius, the Maximianist Bishop
> of Membresa,
> > > > > > > was another of the consecrators. He was twice summoned by the
> proconsul to
> > > > > > > retire in favour of the Primianist Restitutus. As he was much
> respected by
> > > > > > > the people of Membresa, a mob was brought over from the
> neighbouring town of
> > > > > > > Abitene to expel him; the aged bishop was beaten, and made to
> dance with
> > > > > > > dead dogs tied around his neck. But his people built him a new
> church, and
> > > > > > > three bishops coexisted in this small town, a Maximianist, a
> Primianist, and
> > > > > > > a Catholic.
> > > > > > > The leader of the Donatists at this time was Optatus, Bishop of
> Thamugadi
> > > > > > > (Timgad), called Gildonianus, from his friendship with Gildo,
> the Count of
> > > > > > > Africa (386-397). For ten years Optatus, supported by Gildo, was
> the tyrant
> > > > > > > of Africa. He persecuted the Rogatists and Maximianists, and he
> used troops
> > > > > > > against the Catholics. St. Augustine tells us that his vices and
> cruelties
> > > > > > > were beyond description; but they had at least the effect of
> disgracing the
> > > > > > > cause of the Donatists, for though he was hated throughout
> Africa for his
> > > > > > > wickedness and his evil deeds, yet the Puritan faction remained
> always in
> > > > > > > full communion with this bishop, who was a robber, a ravisher,
> an oppressor,
> > > > > > > a traitor, and a monster of cruelty. When Gildo fell in 397,
> after having
> > > > > > > made himself master of Africa for a few months, Optatus was
> thrown into a
> > > > > > > prison, in which he died.
> > > > > > > Saint Augustine
> > > > > > > St. Augustine began his victorious campaign against Donatism
> soon after he
> > > > > > > was ordained priest in 391. His popular psalm or "Abecedarium"
> against the
> > > > > > > Donatists was intended to make known to the people the arguments
> set forth
> > > > > > > by St. Optatus, with the same conciliatory end in view. It shows
> that the
> > > > > > > sect was founded by traditors, condemned by pope and council,
> separated from
> > > > > > > the whole world, a cause of division, violence, and bloodshed;
> the true
> > > > > > > Church is the one Vine, whose branches are over all the earth.
> After St.
> > > > > > > Augustine had become bishop in 395, he obtained conferences with
> some of the
> > > > > > > Donatist leaders, though not with his rival at Hippo. In 400 he
> wrote three
> > > > > > > books against the letter of Parmenianus, refuting his calumnies
> and his
> > > > > > > arguments from Scripture. More important were his seven books on
> baptism, in
> > > > > > > which, after developing the principle already laid down by St.
> Optatus, that
> > > > > > > the effect of the sacrament is independent of the holiness of
> the minister,
> > > > > > > he shows in great detail that the authority of St. Cyprian is
> more awkward
> > > > > > > than convenient for the Donatists. The principal Donatist
> controversialist
> > > > > > > of the day was Petilianus, Bishop of Constantine, a successor of
> the
> > > > > > > traditor Silvanus. St. Augustine wrote two books in reply to a
> letter of his
> > > > > > > against the Church, adding a third book to answer another letter
> in which he
> > > > > > > was himself attacked by Petilianus. Before this last book he
> published his
> > > > > > > De Unitate ecclesiae" about 403. To these works must be added
> some sermons
> > > > > > > and some letters which are real treatises.
> > > > > > > The arguments used by St. Augustine against Donatism fall under
> three heads.
> > > > > > > First we have the historical proofs of the regularity of
> Caecilian's
> > > > > > > consecration, of the innocence of Felix of Aptonga, of the guilt
> of the
> > > > > > > founders of the "Pure" Church, also the judgment given by pope,
> council, and
> > > > > > > emperor, the true history of Macarius, the barbarous behaviour
> of the
> > > > > > > Donatists under Julian, the violence of the Circumcellions, and
> so forth.
> > > > > > > Second, there are the doctrinal arguments: the proofs from the
> Old and New
> > > > > > > Testaments that the Church is Catholic, diffused throughout the
> world, and
> > > > > > > necessarily one and united; appeal is made to the See of Rome,
> where the
> > > > > > > succession of bishops is uninterrupted from St. Peter himself;
> St. Augustine
> > > > > > > borrows his list of popes from St. Optatus (Ep. li), and in his
> psalm
> > > > > > > crystallizes the argument into the famous phrase: "That is the
> rock against
> > > > > > > which the proud gates of hell do not prevail." A further appeal
> is to the
> > > > > > > Eastern Church, and especially to the Apostolic Churches to
> which St. Peter,
> > > > > > > St. Paul, and St. John addressed epistles - they were not in
> communion with
> > > > > > > the Donatists. The validity of baptism conferred by heretics,
> the impiety of
> > > > > > > rebaptizing, are important points. All these arguments were
> found in St.
> > > > > > > Optatus. Peculiar to St. Augustine is the necessity of defending
> St. Cyprian
> > > > > > > and the third category is wholly his own. The third division
> comprises the
> > > > > > > argumentum ad hominem drawn from the inconsistency of the
> Donatists
> > > > > > > themselves: Secundus had pardoned the traditors; full fellowship
> was
> > > > > > > accorded to malefactors like Optatus Gildonianus and the
> Circumcellions;
> > > > > > > Tichonius turned against his own party; Maximian had divided
> from Primatus
> > > > > > > just as Majorinus from Caecilian; the Maximianists had been
> readmitted
> > > > > > > without rebaptism.
> > > > > > > This last method of argument was found to be of great practical
> value, and
> > > > > > > many conversions were now taking place, largely on account of
> the false
> > > > > > > position in which the Donatists had placed themselves. This
> point had been
> > > > > > > especially emphasized by the Council of Carthage of Sept., 401,
> which had
> > > > > > > ordered information as to the treatment of the Maximianists to
> be gathered
> > > > > > > from magistrates. The same synod restored the earlier rule, long
> since
> > > > > > > abolished, that Donatist bishops and clergy should retain their
> rank if they
> > > > > > > returned to the Church. Pope Anastasius I wrote to the council
> urging the
> > > > > > > importance of the Donatist question. Another council in 403
> organized public
> > > > > > > disputations with the Donatists. This energetic action roused
> the
> > > > > > > Circumcellions to new violence. The life of St. Augustine was
> endangered.
> > > > > > > His future biographer, St. Possidius of Calama, was insulted and
> ill-treated
> > > > > > > by a party led by a Donatist priest, Crispinus. The latter's
> bishop, also
> > > > > > > named Crispinus, was tried at Carthage and fined ten pounds of
> gold as a
> > > > > > > heretic, though the fine was remitted by Possidius. This is the
> first case
> > > > > > > known to us in which a Donatist is declared a heretic, but
> henceforth it is
> > > > > > > the common style for them. The cruel and disgusting treatment of
> Maximianus,
> > > > > > > Bishop of Bagai, is also related by St. Augustine in detail. The
> Emperor
> > > > > > > Honorius was induced by the Catholics to renew the old laws
> against the
> > > > > > > Donatists at the beginning of 405. Some good resulted, but the
> > > > > > > Circumcellions of Hippo were excited to new violence. The letter
> of
> > > > > > > Petilianus was defended by a grammarian named Cresconius,
> against whom St.
> > > > > > > Augustine published a reply in four books. The third and fourth
> books are
> > > > > > > especially important, as in these he argues from the Donatists'
> treatment of
> > > > > > > the Maximianists, quotes the Acts of the Council of Cirta held
> by Secundus,
> > > > > > > and cites other important documents. The saint also replied to a
> pamphlet by
> > > > > > > Petilianus, "De unico baptismate".
> > > > > > > The "Collatio" of 411
> > > > > > > St. Augustine had once hoped to conciliate the Donatists by
> reason only. The
> > > > > > > violence of the Circumcellions, the cruelties of Optatus of
> Thamugadi, the
> > > > > > > more recent attacks on Catholic bishops had all given proof that
> repression
> > > > > > > by the secular arm was absolutely unavoidable. It was not
> necessarily a case
> > > > > > > of persecution for religious opinions, but simply one of the
> protection of
> > > > > > > life and property and the ensuring of freedom and safety for
> Catholics.
> > > > > > > Nevertheless the laws went much further than this. Those of
> Honorius were
> > > > > > > promulgated anew in 408 and 410. In 411 the method of
> disputation was
> > > > > > > organized on a grand scale by order of the emperor himself at
> the request of
> > > > > > > the Catholic bishops. Their case was now complete and
> unanswerable. But this
> > > > > > > was to be brought home to the people of Africa, and public
> opinion was to be
> > > > > > > forced to recognize the facts, by a public exposure of the
> weakness of the
> > > > > > > separatist position. The emperor sent an official
> namedMarcellinus, an
> > > > > > > excellent Christian, to preside as cognitor at the conference.
> He issued a
> > > > > > > proclamation declaring that he would exercise absolute
> impartiality in his
> > > > > > > conduct of the proceedings and in his final judgment. The
> Donatist bishops
> > > > > > > who should come to the conference were to receive back for the
> present the
> > > > > > > basilicas which had been taken from them. The number of those
> who arrived at
> > > > > > > Carthage was very large, though somewhat less that the two
> hundred and
> > > > > > > seventy-nine whose signatures were appended to a letter to the
> president.
> > > > > > > The Catholic bishops numbered two hundred and eighty-six.
> Marcellinus
> > > > > > > decided that each party should elect seven disputants, who alone
> should
> > > > > > > speak, seven advisers whom they might consult, and four
> secretaries to keep
> > > > > > > the records. Thus only thirty-six bishops would be present in
> all. The
> > > > > > > Donatists pretended that this was a device to prevent their
> great numbers
> > > > > > > being known; but the Catholics did not object to all of them
> being present,
> > > > > > > provided no disturbance was caused.
> > > > > > > The chief Catholic speaker, besides the amiable and venerable
> Bishop of
> > > > > > > Carthage, Aurelius, was of course Augustine, whose fame had
> already spread
> > > > > > > through the whole Church. His friend, Alypius of Tagaste, and
> his disciple
> > > > > > > and biographer, Possidius, were also among the seven. The
> principal Donatist
> > > > > > > speakers were Emeritus of Caesarea in Mauretania (Cherchel) and
> Petilianus
> > > > > > > of Constantine (Cirta); the latter spoke or interrupted about a
> hundred and
> > > > > > > fifty times, until on the third day he was so hoarse that he had
> to desist.
> > > > > > > The Catholics made a generous proposal that any Donatist bishop
> who should
> > > > > > > join the Church, should preside alternately with the Catholic
> bishop in the
> > > > > > > episcopal chair, unless the people should object, in which case
> both must
> > > > > > > resign and a new election be made. The conference was held on
> the 1, 3, and
> > > > > > > 8 June. The policy of the Donatists was to raise technical
> objections, to
> > > > > > > cause delay, and by all manner of means to prevent the Catholic
> disputants
> > > > > > > from stating their case. The Catholic case was, however, clearly
> enunciated
> > > > > > > on the first day in letters which were read, addressed by the
> Catholic
> > > > > > > bishops to Marcellinus and to their deputies to instruct them in
> the
> > > > > > > procedure. A discussion of important points was arrived at only
> on the third
> > > > > > > day, amid many interruptions. It was then evident that the
> unwillingness of
> > > > > > > the Donatists to have a real discussion was due to the fact that
> they could
> > > > > > > not reply to the arguments and documents brought forward by the
> Catholics.
> > > > > > > The insincerity as well as the inconsequence and clumsiness of
> the sectaries
> > > > > > > did them great harm. The main doctrinal points and historical
> proofs of the
> > > > > > > Catholics were made perfectly plain. The cognitor summed up in
> favor of the
> > > > > > > Catholic bishops. The churches which had been provisionally
> restored to the
> > > > > > > Donatists were to be given up; their assemblies were forbidden
> under grave
> > > > > > > penalties. The lands of those who permitted Circumcellions on
> their property
> > > > > > > were to be confiscated. The minutes of this great conference
> were submitted
> > > > > > > to all the speakers for their approval, and the report of each
> speech
> > > > > > > (mostly only a singlesentence) was signed by the speaker as a
> guarantee of
> > > > > > > its accuracy. We possess these manuscripts in full only as far
> as the middle
> > > > > > > of the third day; for the rest only the headings of each little
> speech are
> > > > > > > preserved. These headings were composed by order ofMarcellinus
> in order to
> > > > > > > facilitate reference. On account of the dullness and a length of
> the full
> > > > > > > report, St. Augustine composed a popular resume of the
> discussions in his
> > > > > > > Breviculus Collationis" , and went with more detail into a few
> points in a
> > > > > > > final pamphlet, "Ad Donatistas post Collationem" .
> > > > > > > On 30 Jan., 412, Honorius issued a final law against the
> Donatists, renewing
> > > > > > > old legislation and adding a scale of fines for Donatist clergy,
> and for the
> > > > > > > laity and their wives: the illustres were to pay fifty pounds of
> gold, the
> > > > > > > spectabiles forty, the senatores and sacerdotales thirty, the
> clarissimi and
> > > > > > > principales twenty, the decuriones, negotiatores, and plebeii
> five, which
> > > > > > > Circumcellions were to pay ten pounds of silver. Slaves were to
> be reproved
> > > > > > > by their masters, coloni were to be constrained by repeated
> beatings. All
> > > > > > > bishops and clerics were exiled from Africa. In 414 the fines
> were increased
> > > > > > > for those of high rank: a proconsul, vicar, or count was fined
> two hundred
> > > > > > > pounds of gold, and a senator a hundred. A further law was
> published in 428.
> > > > > > > The good Marcellinus, who had become the friend of St. Augustine
> fell a
> > > > > > > victim (it is supposed) to the rancour of the Donatists; for he
> was put to
> > > > > > > death in 413, as though an accomplice in the revolt of Heraclius
> Count of
> > > > > > > Africa, in spite of the orders of the emperor, who did not
> believe him
> > > > > > > guilty. Donatism was now discredited by the conference and
> proscribed by the
> > > > > > > persecuting laws of Honorius. The Circumcellions made some dying
> efforts,
> > > > > > > and a priest was killed by them at Hippo. It does not seem that
> the decrees
> > > > > > > were rigidly carried out, for the Donatist clergy was still
> found in Africa.
> > > > > > > The ingenious Emeritus was at Caesarea in 418, and at the wish
> of Pope
> > > > > > > Zosimus St. Augustine had a conference with him, without result.
> But on the
> > > > > > > whole Donatism was dead. Even before the conference the Catholic
> Bishops in
> > > > > > > Africa were considerably more numerous than the Donatists,
> except in Numidia
> > > > > > > From the time of the invasion of the Vandals in 430 little is
> heard of them
> > > > > > > until the days of St. Gregory the Great, when they seem to have
> revived
> > > > > > > somewhat, for the pope complained to the Emperor Maurice that
> the laws were
> > > > > > > not strictly enforced. They finally disappeared with the
> irruptions of the
> > > > > > > Saracens.
> > > > > > > Donatist writers
> > > > > > > There seems to have been no lack of literary activity among the
> Donatists of
> > > > > > > the fourth century, though little remains to us. The works of
> Donatus the
> > > > > > > Great were known to St. Jerome, but have not been preserved. His
> book on the
> > > > > > > Holy Spirit is said by that Father to have been Arian in
> doctrine. It is
> > > > > > > possible that the Pseudo-Cyprianic "De singularitate clericorum"
> is by
> > > > > > > Macrobius; and the "Adversus aleatores" is by an antipope,
> either Donatist
> > > > > > > or Novatianist. The arguments of Parmenianus and Cresconius are
> known to us,
> > > > > > > though their works are lost; but Monceaux has been able to
> restore from St.
> > > > > > > Augustine's citations short works by Petilianus of Constantine
> and
> > > > > > > Gaudentius of Thamugadi, and also a libellus by a certain
> Fulgentius, from
> > > > > > > the citations in the Pseudo-Augustinian "Contra Fulgentium
> Donatistam". Of
> > > > > > > Tichonius, or Tyconius, we still possess the treatise "De Septem
> regulis" (P
> > > > > > > L., XVIII; new ed. by Professor Burkitt, in Cambridge "Texts and
> Studies",
> > > > > > > III, 1, 1894) on the interpretation of Holy Scripture. His
> commentary on the
> > > > > > > Apocalypse is lost; it was used by Jerome, Primasius, and Beatus
> in their
> > > > > > > commentaries on the same book. Tichonius is chiefly celebrated
> for his views
> > > > > > > on the Church, which were quite inconsistent with Donatism, and
> which
> > > > > > > Parmenianus tried to refute. In the famous words of St.
> Augustine (who often
> > > > > > > refers to his illogical position and to the force with which her
> argued
> > > > > > > against the cardinal tenets of his own sect): "Tichonius
> assailed on all
> > > > > > > sides by the voices of the holy pages, awoke and saw the Church
> of God
> > > > > > > diffused throughout the world, as had been foreseen and foretold
> of her so
> > > > > > > long before by the hearts and mouths of the saints. And seeing
> this, he
> > > > > > > undertook to demonstrate and assert against his own party that
> no sin of man
> > > > > > > however villainous and monstrous, can interfere with the
> promises of God,
> > > > > > > nor can any impiety of any persons within the Church cause the
> word of God
> > > > > > > to be made void as to the existence and diffusion of the Church
> to the ends
> > > > > > > of the earth, which was promised to the Fathers and now is
> manifest" (Contra
> > > > > > > Ep. Parmen., I, i).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -------Original Message----- --
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: bet_khumri
> > > > > > > Date: 6/29/2009 9:58:10 PM
> > > > > > > To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > Subject: [israeliteidentity] Re: Augustine a genocidal maniac
> who believed
> > > > > > > in forcefully converting
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How can you call him one of God's greatest saints and not know
> what he
> > > > > > > taught? I could understand if you were skeptical or even neutral
> but to
> > > > > > > proclaim that he was great and not know his teaches is
> ridiculous!
> > > > > > > Read Epistola 93 it is about 35 pages of how he defends
> persecution to make
> > > > > > > people accept the "truth." He uses the verse I cited amongst
> others to
> > > > > > > support it, there are other writings but this is the main letter
> on this
> > > > > > > issue.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com, "Debunks" <debunks@>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > it is an evil thing to refer to one of God's greatest Saints
> and a
> > > > > > > successor
> > > > > > > > to the Apostles as a 'Satan.' Augustine did not support the
> genocide of
> > > > > > > > anyone. A word of well meant constructive criticism, if I may?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When you cite a source, cite it properly. Give us the book or
> the essay
> > > > > > > > from which the citation was culled - In the case of Augustine
> and the
> > > > > > > Church
> > > > > > > > Fathers, the verses are usually numbered for fast reference.
> And most
> > > > > > > > importantly, DO NOT CITE out of CONTEXT!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Keep the passage in full context so people can ascertain the
> proper
> > > > > > > meaning
> > > > > > > > of the passage. When you cite out of context, you mislead
> people - and
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > is dishonest.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, where did you obtain this passage?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -------Original Message----- --
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Sam Rob
> > > > > > > > Date: 6/29/2009 1:58:32 AM
> > > > > > > > To: israeliteidentity@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > > > Subject: [israeliteidentity] Augustine a genocidal maniac who
> believed in
> > > > > > > > forcefully converting
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Satan Augustine, oops I mean Saint Augustine, taught that
> people should be
> > > > > > > > forcefully converted to Catholicism and tried to use the
> following Bible
> > > > > > > > verse to support an act of genocide against non-Catholics!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and
> bade many:
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were
> bidden, Come; for
> > > > > > > > all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began
> to make
> > > > > > > excuse
> > > > > > > > The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and
> I must needs
> > > > > > > > go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. And another said,
> I have
> > > > > > > bought
> > > > > > > > five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me
> excused.
> > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot
> come. So that
> > > > > > > > servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the
> master of the
> > > > > > > house
> > > > > > > > being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the
> streets and lanes
> > > > > > > > of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and
> the halt,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > the blind. And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast
> commanded,
> > > > > > > > and yet there is room. And the lord said unto the servant, Go
> out into the
> > > > > > > > highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house
> may be
> > > > > > > filled
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Luk 14:16-23
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >

 

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the REAL terrorists--not a single one is an Arab

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