Jivanjee and the Hultgreen Syndrome

 

Affirmative action was outlawed in California when two thirds of California voters passed Proposition 209, so it’s now the law of the land in every state as well as federal law.  Because the Supreme Court and federal courts have dragged their feet [a federal judge held up implementation in California by claiming “the voters didn’t know what they were voting for”, until the appeals court came to its senses and slapped him across the head] so much and so long that it’s alive and well in most of the country, and in most of the military services.

Professor Lynn estimates that the average IQ of India is 83, too low to sustain a technological society.  jivanjee has a 99.9% probability of having been patently unqualified to be a pilot and was accepted to flight school only because of affirmative action.  Political correctness will prevent anyone in the military, particularly his own trainers, from acknowledging that he was never qualified to be admitted in the first place, simply unqualified to fly, and is solely responsible for killing himself, discrediting Hamilton who might have actually been a highly qualified pilot, and destroying $83 million worth of U.S. government property.

 

The report noted Jivanjee passed too close to another jet in a training flight the day before the collision, an incident that wasn't reported to commanders.

Political correctness at its finest:  shouldn’t this tendency to destroy so much military hardware ourselves be referred to as the Hultgreen Syndrome?

 

 

AF: Pilots Caused Fatal F-15 Collision

August 26, 2008

Associated Press

PENSACOLA, Fla. - Two inexperienced F-15C Eagle pilots made errors that caused a fatal mid-air collision during a combat training mission over the Gulf of Mexico, Air Force investigators concluded in a report released Aug. 25.

Both pilots misjudged how close they were to each other and had less than two seconds to react before Capt. Tucker Hamilton's wing sliced into 1st Lt. Ali Jivanjee's cockpit in the Feb. 20 accident, investigators said.

"The cause of this mishap was pilot error. Both men failed to clear their flight paths and did not recognize their impending high-aspect, mid-air collision," said Brig. Gen. Joseph Reynes, the head of the seven-member Air Force Accident Investigation Board.

Jivanjee, 26, of San Dimas, Calif., died instantly. Hamilton, who is now assigned to a non-flying position in Germany, ejected with minor injuries.

The single-seat fighter planes were destroyed - an $83 million loss for the Air Force.

Both men had excellent qualifications and flying records, Reynes said.

"They were doing maneuvers we do every day thousands of times in all of our air combat command flying aircraft," he said.

The report said both pilots did not have enough time flying the F-15 to be experienced in the aircraft. Jivanjee had fewer than 120 hours of flight time in the aircraft and Hamilton had flown it just under the required 500 hours, the report said.

The report noted Jivanjee passed too close to another jet in a training flight the day before the collision, an incident that wasn't reported to commanders.

"It was a different set of circumstances, but it opens the question of whether Jivanjee totally understood those closure moments," Reynes said, referring to the final moments when the planes passed each other.

Investigators said they found no mechanical or structural problems in the two, nearly 30-year-old fighter jets, which were part of the Air Force's aging and problem-plagued F-15 fleet. The 1979 and 1981 F-15s flown by the two Eglin Air Force Base pilots were in good condition, Reynes said.

The Air Force largely grounded its F-15 fleet from Nov. 3, 2007, to Jan. 10 after an F-15 broke apart in mid-air over Missouri. An investigation found that 160 of the Air Force's nearly 700 F-15s had defects. Last month, another F-15 crashed and killed one pilot during a training mission over the Nevada desert.

The two pilots missed critical training flights in the two months the fleet was grounded, yet the investigative board could not conclude the missed training led to the crash because both met all the qualifications to fly, Reynes said.

"They were both competent and proficient. Were they has proficient as they could have been had we kept flying for the last three months? I cannot answer that, but it does pull at your heart and your mind," he said.

© Copyright 2008 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

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·          

Purplesuiter

Aug 26, 2008 7:57:42 AM

The surviving pilot should be reduced in rank to 2nd Lt and sent to logistics school for training as an logistics officer, then shipped to Thule Greenland to count the trees.

·         JP8VaporHead

Aug 26, 2008 8:22:30 AM

Purple,

I'm sure the pilot already is being punished just by the fact he has to live with what happened.

God Bless both the pilots.

·         eyesight01

Aug 26, 2008 8:38:41 AM

Well this one is full of, would have, should have, could have's. A rather unremarkable story of a mid-air. I never like to hear about any aviator injured or killed, flying is hazardous, we were told that from day one of flight training. Without the flight time in type, comes problems. Getting the flight time in type, can cause problems. That experience requirement, goes for everyone that either works on these birds or fly's them. Somebody had to sign their log books that allowed them to move up to operating this equipment. At the velocities that this A/C is capable of, every second of off set is a 6 mile error in heading. 12 miles of separation suddenly becomes no miles of separation. The usual blame game is not going to help the family of the aviator who lost his life. May God rest his sole.

·         15219629

Aug 26, 2008 10:10:45 AM

Everone has heard the old saying that "Aviation in itself is not dangerous but it is very unforgiving of mistakes."

As long as we attempt to do things, anything, we will make mistakes and have accidents. As ususal, all any of us can do is make note, learn and continue to march.

My heart goes out to the families of these fine aviators and all who knew them. There have been those that have gone before them, and unfortunately, there will be some to follow. What is the point to deny the inevitable, even though we strive daily to prevent it from occuring? We as humans make errors and these leak to catastrophic mistakes such as this one.

It is bad to be lost in combat and to be lost in training is a tragic because of it's avoidability. It is a risk we have all taken. Our military must keep up the pace and not withdraw realistic training because of fear of loss. That "training" is what makes those that defend this great nation the very best military in the world.

R.I.P. & God bless and Protect them all.

JD

·         AceShaw

Aug 26, 2008 10:18:12 AM

I agree with you 100% JP8VaporHead-
I just couldn't imagine having to go around knowing that a simple little mistake took a young man's life.

·         jbwildfire123

Aug 26, 2008 10:45:57 AM

Hey purplesuiter you ever serve in the military or ar you a want-to-be....typical blame the survivor stuff. Just because the Capt.'s wing sliced into the Lt's cockpit does not make him at fault. We learn and can teach others from our mistakes...he should be allowed to continue flying as long as he is willing and can maintain his proficiency and his combat edge, in fact he would likely be one of the most cautious flyers after this. REMEMBER both of these brave guys VOLUNTEERED to defend this great country...I don’t think that Jivanjee would want Hamilton to stop flying over this.

God Bless both of these men and their families.

·         ColtsFootball18

Aug 26, 2008 11:03:43 AM

i agree both pilots made mistakes just because one survived doesnt make him the evil guy...he has to live with that forever...i get sick of situations like these, typical idiotic people blaming the survivor....this was a fatal mistake and it happened, so drink some prune juice and let that sht go

·         rkgtactical

Aug 26, 2008 11:20:57 AM

Purplesuiter,
It must be great to have served 20 without ever making a mistake. Yes, this mistake cost a man's life. But, a mistake is a mistake. I'm sure he will grieve over this forever. I don't know what you did in the Air Force, but I know what I did in the Navy and on the Detroit PD. Trust me, I made errors in judgement. Split second decisions while under stress and sleep deprived. I have incidents that I have been and will continue to live with for the rest of my life. Try not to be so judgemental, it isn't very becoming of a veteran toward another veteran.

On another note, again I wish to extend my sincere sympathies and prayers to the family and friends of the deceased pilot, Ali Jivanjee as well to Capt. Hamilton. He has much to deal with and will need support.

·         ldruley

Aug 26, 2008 12:17:26 PM

Training accident! It is a great shame. But, it sometimes happens. I am sure neither men got up this morning planning to crash. My best to both families and as far as the cost of the planes. Oh well, we lost a fine young man and another has to live with the memories. CSM Ruley

·         tuffgrunt77

Aug 26, 2008 12:58:01 PM

Poorly written article. The article says, "Both men had excellent qualifications and flying records". Then the articles says,

"The report said both pilots did not have enough time flying the F-15 to be experienced in the aircraft. Jivanjee had fewer than 120 hours of flight time in the aircraft and Hamilton had flown it just under the required 500 hours, the report said."

Then another reversal,""They were both competent and proficient."

Well what is it, were they both competent and proficient or were they inexperienced?

·         Bonfire96

Aug 26, 2008 1:45:48 PM

if your father and grandfather are admirals, you can crash or get shot down in FIVE jets...as mccain has done in his naval career.

·         gonnabeadevildog

Aug 26, 2008 1:57:55 PM

Tuffgrunt.
They were both accomplished pilots, just not in the F-15.

·         gonnabeadevildog

Aug 26, 2008 2:00:48 PM

Bonfire that's pretty bad taste.
Mcain was shot down putting his life on the line for his country.
he may have wrecked some planes in traing but I don't think he caused any deaths.

·         donnieburke

Aug 26, 2008 2:06:50 PM

Bonfire,
I'm sure you're a honorable man,but politics has no place on this thread.
Donnie Burke, AMS3
VAW-121, 1976-79

·         Purplesuiter

Aug 26, 2008 9:27:01 PM

bonfire is just repeating the oft spoken democrat talking points about how McCain was responsible for the fire aboard an aircraft carrier he was serving on.

·         rkgtactical

Aug 27, 2008 12:06:18 AM

Purplesuiter,
You and that Bonfire are both so full of crap. Neither of you know what you are talking about. John McCain had nothing to do with the USS Forestall fire nor did he crash all the planes you speak of. Your both a couple of dueche bags for even discussing such a thing on this thread as well as being flat out wrong. It's amazing how much stupidity is on the military.com website.

·         glockman95370

Aug 27, 2008 2:08:24 AM

Saw 2 F-14's go down witin 2 days,was first on scene on second plane,both crew members were still alive,can't even describe what I saw in words.Then in July '76,watched in shock as a Blue Angle flew his A-4 into the ground while upside down,there was a fire a mile long.

·         Purplesuiter

Aug 27, 2008 2:56:45 AM

rkgtactical

All I said what the the other guy was just repeating the democrat talking points.

I know that McCain was not responsible for the fire aboard the carrier.

·         cdrhagen

Aug 27, 2008 8:04:02 AM

It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that very few of you can have the faintest clue about air combat warfare and the training required to be proficient in a fighter jet. There have allways been, and will allways continue to be mid-air collisions during training with fighters flown by man. Desk job in Germany? Counting trees at Thule? That's like shoveling **** in Louisiana! In my Air Force he would have been back in the air in a heart-beat focusing on confidence building and staying combat ready. For those of us who missed our friends with a few inches, - not once, but many times,- an accident like this one brings back memories of that rush of adrenaline and candid debriefings from which we all learned a lot. Accident investigation boards should be abolished in the form they have today....."The Force is shot to hell!"
A fine man is dead and a flyboy needs support! So do their families and loved ones.....
With a less punitive system the fighting power of your nation would increase.

·         JP8VaporHead

Aug 27, 2008 8:26:17 AM

cdrhagen wrote:

"With a less punitive system the fighting power of your nation would increase. "


So....if a pilot is negligent in doing a task in his job, which results in the death of someone else, you think there should be no punishment? Need accountability..........

·         Bowser509

Aug 27, 2008 9:51:41 AM

Fighter lead in training is not what it used to be at Holloman AFB. Now AETC pretends to teach BFM to T-38 students but it is not real aggressive and does not emphasise geometry and situation awareness as well as closure and six axis manuvering. It is awful that an F-15 Driver is doing one v one BFM and collides but it has happened before.
These men were let down but the ASir Force Training system

·         7747278

Aug 27, 2008 10:48:23 AM

midair collisions will unfortunately continue to happen. pilots with little experience need more air time before they are allowed to do more complex manuvers. too much sim time i think. while stationed at an air station, i saw one happen. made me sick to the stomach,and these were prop jobs (training station). until our services come up with something that can move an aircraft away from a collision. we will just see more.

Docsenko

·         ex3rdmp

Aug 27, 2008 11:07:55 AM

Bonfire is an idiot. Somebody ban him so we can have some sense on this board. I bet he isn't even a vet. He is just one of the paid bloggers working out of the DNC camp. Yes people, they have paid employee's whose entire job is to go on sites like this and attack the opponent. The crazier the attacks the better.

·         ex3rdmp

Aug 27, 2008 11:11:44 AM

"So....if a pilot is negligent in doing a task in his job, which results in the death of someone else, you think there should be no punishment? Need accountability.......... "

There is negligence (like striking a gondola wire while hot dogging in the Italian Alps) and there is an accident like flying too close in training. One should be actionable and the other should not. In order to have realistic training we will always have accidents but people's careers should not be over just because they made an accident in training.

·         cdrhagen

Aug 27, 2008 12:10:37 PM

Hi JP8VaporHead,
All your fine men in uniform are concidered aces untill proven otherwise,-and in this case there is nothing in the article telling me why they hit. What kind of maneuvering was it? What were the mission objectives? BFM, ACM, or something else on the annual training program? Or was it weapons testing/training? What was the nature of the problems leading up to the pilot error alledgedly made? If you want zero eccidents, you might just as well bolt your F-15's to the tarmac. No guts,- no glory! Stop looking at the Squadron building as a Court-room. It is a room for fighter-boys.....and if you cannot accept that, then stop breeding them. Fighter operations is a delicate ballance between being agressive and carefull. When you are making that balancing act your profession, you are bound to make an error or two,- sooner or later. If you then live to fight another day, that chance to fly again should not be taken away from you by default! That was all!

·         JP8VaporHead

Aug 27, 2008 12:43:43 PM

I was not saying the pilot in this story needed to be punished, if you read my first comment at the beginning.

I've read the final accident report already. The pilots were doing BFM's.

·         JiminGA

Aug 27, 2008 3:04:07 PM

It's a dangerous job and humans make mistakes that are sometimes fatal.

·         Kevin_Duck_Perry

Aug 27, 2008 7:25:27 PM

TuffGrunt77:

The AF definition of a fighter pilot that is clssified as "EXPERIENCED" is 500 hours in that specific weapons system if he/she has never been "experinced" in another "type" system. In this case, both pilots were initial F-15 pilots from pilot training. Neither had over 500 hours in the F-15, thus they were officially classified as "INEXPERINECED" in their weapons system (F-15) It is just a number. If an Experienced pilot in one a/c transitions to a differenct a/c..say a change from an F-4 to an F-16, then only 300 hours in the F-16 classifies that pilot as EXPERIENCED in the F-16. Make sense?

·         Chops5152

Aug 28, 2008 3:33:40 AM

Purple,
I just wanna say, I'm really surprised by your military.com profile. Never, in the time that I've been in the Air Force, have I met or seen a retired TSgt with an empty profile and only 2 ribbons. I'm not going to assume or say anything negative about your career except for wow, just wow..........

·         tuffgrunt77

Aug 28, 2008 1:05:42 PM

Duck:

Thanks for clarifying the point about the standards regarding the pilots' experience status.

·         Purplesuiter

Aug 31, 2008 5:59:34 AM

"chops"

I never found to the time to finishing my bio.

Seen or heard the ghosts at the Kun? You did hear the stories about the one hangar there.

·         18167737

Sep 1, 2008 3:19:43 PM

Purplesuiter,
You knack for stupidity amazes me. You sound like some flunkie that spent a lot of time on kp or mess duty.

·         Vegasfighterpilot

Sep 4, 2008 5:37:57 PM

Purple,
You are an IDIOT!
Lt Col Stephen Cobb (Ret)

·         18844698

Sep 4, 2008 6:35:12 PM

What is it that you did do purple? Polish knobs?

·         Jim_Wright

Sep 4, 2008 6:37:49 PM

Fighter pilot Training is and always will be a dangerous thing but it is necessary if we are to maintain our country. My condolances to the family and to the survivor. I don't think a day will ever go by that he wont remember this. If there is negligence then that has to be taken care of but the witch hunts that have occured and are becoming ever more prevalent need to stop. They serve no purpose and only serve to damage our great military.If you read the report you will find one of the contributing factors is a shortage of flight training hours complicated by a fleet wide aircraft problem.

Jim Wright

·         Jim_Wright

Sep 4, 2008 6:39:57 PM

Fighter pilot Training is and always will be a dangerous thing but it is necessary if we are to maintain our country. My condolances to the family and to the survivor. I don't think a day will ever go by that he wont remember this. If there is negligence then that has to be taken care of but the witch hunts that have occured and are becoming ever more prevalent need to stop. They serve no purpose and only serve to damage our great military.If you read the report you will find one of the contributing factors is a shortage of flight training hours complicated by a fleet wide aircraft problem.

Jim Wright

·         11924074

Sep 4, 2008 6:59:27 PM

I also do not like the wording of this article and think the author should be ashamed. Perhaps the author does not understand the experience level needed before reaching a major weapon system plane.
Flying a fighter is not the same as other planes - fighter pilots may only receive a quarter of the hours of other pilots after 20 years of service. This does not mean that they are less experienced. These pilots underwent multiple years of pilot training before even stepping foot into the cockpit of the F-15. All of this training was preparing them for the fighter - learning tactics and operating procedures, memorizing emergency procedures, and practicing in simulators. Gaining actual flight hours in this plane is difficult as they can go through 6,000 lbs. of fuel in one hour and the physical demand of pulling multiple G's is straining. In order to fly this plane, these men WERE experienced.
Every day these men were training for war and training to protect our country. Doing this job means that, even though it is training, there is still a lot of risk. As eyesight01 said, reaction time is extremely limited. These men have to react and, when something goes wrong, have less than seconds to respond. It is the unfortunate situation when a person's life is lost in training, but I can guarantee that these men were properly trained.
The aftermath of an accident causes a lot of should have, could have, and what if's. The situation of this occurring immediately following the extended grounding of the planes leaves questions that can never be answered; however, I do know that during this grounding, these men were still studying and training - finding simulator time and going through tactics and procedures in classrooms.
"Inexperienced" should never have been used to describe these pilots. Both men dedicated their lives to serving our great country and deserve a higher level of dignity.

·         5992569

Sep 4, 2008 7:00:15 PM

I spent 25 years flying AF jets from F-100s to F-16s. The safe way to fly fighters is to keep them in the hanger. Flying fighters is dangerous. Pilots who are reckless don't make it out of pilot training. The workload for a fighter pilot is heavy. He or she is the pilot, weapon systems operator, navigator and flight engineer. One mistake can be tragic. Pilots try to avoid those mistakes. I can assure you that misconduct was not a factor. Two professionals were doing their jobs. After some retraining, I hope they return the pilot to flying status.

Colonel Gene McVay, author of TOP GUN MANAGEMENT and Publisher of arkansasbeat.com

·         16543248

Sep 4, 2008 7:19:47 PM

As a surgeon, I can assure you that every surgeon knows of a mistake he/she made which cost another human being their life. Very few stop operating as a result of this knowledge. This is due to the long selection process to become a surgeon. I believe the same is true for fighter pilots. That's the nature of the job and sometimes a mistake results in killing your colleague or even yourself.

·         11693995

Sep 4, 2008 7:30:50 PM

Dear Purplesuiter,

The surviving pilot is now in a non-flying position, which is worse than a downgrade in a rank to a pilot. Also, it states above that the deceased pilot had recently flown too close to another aircraft in training (and was likely struggling with maintaining appropriate distance). Hamilton was likely not the sole pilot at fault and will have to live with the memory of what happened. Please respect his service to this country and the memory of his fellow wingman.

·         18090321

Sep 4, 2008 7:33:13 PM

what was jivanjee's religious affiliation?

·         F22Flighttester

Sep 4, 2008 8:09:12 PM

How sad these pilots lost their focus if only for a second. However, as long a man fly's he will stumble once in a while. The families of both should remain proud of their airmen.

·         8860907

Sep 4, 2008 8:36:52 PM

Pilot error happens, We learn from our mistakes and improve on them. Mc Cain was shot down in Vietnam, and served time in a POW camp, I believe it was Hanoi Hilton 4 or 5 years. On the carrier he was sitting in his jet near a jet that shot off a missle accidently and hit a jet across the deck. The fire and explosions started, and chaos ensued. Acft and lives were envolved from the incident. Mc Cain was sitting in his acft when this happened, he was not the cause of the mishap.

·         8389293

Sep 4, 2008 8:53:04 PM

Having been lucky enough to spend 30 years as an Air Force Flight Surgeon, and again lucky that most of it was as the GIB in the Eagle and the Viper, it is easy to separate those who have "been there" and those who do not have a ****in clue.

·         2240885

Sep 4, 2008 8:57:39 PM

eyesight01, 15219629, and all comments of similar verbage appear to have their heads and their hearts, their training and experience in order. My father was one of the early test pilots and, in his spare time did things like establish the nutritional standards for high-altitude pilots, re-wrote the ADC books for safety reasons. He pulled a lot of body parts out of planes in the early days and spent time with widows with babies, as did my mother. He was a hell of a pilot, an officer, a gentleman. One thing that troubled him were instructors who pushed the pilots too early. The article is despicable and painful to read, and the punishment of the surviving pilot is beyond my comprehension. If Dad were alive, I am certain he would have written a comment similar to eyesight01. He had a quiet eloquence with words because he was a great pilot and a great human being. Meaning he was a fly-boy, but a sober humanitarian first. May God lift the wings of those who are suffering, those who believe they need not take responsibility and point fingers ridiculously, due this, indeed, "unremarkable" mid-air collision tragedy. May God lift the souls of all, family members and friends.

·         14454774

Sep 4, 2008 9:59:15 PM

They always blame the dead guy. When my brother in law was killed in 91 in an F-16 mid air collision, much like the one describe in this article, the Air Force blamed my dead brother in law and the guy in the other plane lived and really had no serious reprecussions.

It's a convenient way to close an accident report. I was an active duty E-8 at the time and couldn't say much about it, but I see accident reports for what they are; mainly political. Make the Air Force look as good as possible.

·         17267730

Sep 4, 2008 10:26:15 PM

How can the investigators know the condition of the aircraft, at the time of the incident, when both were destroyed? It seems the investigtors are spring loaded to say "Pilot Error" when all the facts are not or cannot be exposed or known. Give Mr. Hamilton a fair and lengthy chance to desscribe what happened, then have some experienced F-15 pilots thoroughly sift through what is available before concluding the case.
Thanks Col. John Gleason(USAF) ret

·         17473427

Sep 4, 2008 10:28:10 PM

Purplesuiter, seriosly get some sort of clue!!

·         mustang190

Sep 4, 2008 10:45:40 PM

Ummm first they are called "inexperianced" then later on it is said they had excellant qualifications? and 500 hours is qualified and 120 hours is still in training. It was a screw up ie. Pilot Error!

·         E_C_Kemp

Sep 4, 2008 11:39:45 PM

Reynes said "They were both competent and proficient
" How is that possible when the statement was made "The two pilots missed critical training flights in the two months the fleet was grounded, yet the investigative board could not conclude the missed training led to the crash because both met all the qualifications to fly, Reynes said." Makes you wonder who allows people to go play with planes. I think boys and girls that the point is missed here. I have flown jets as an enlisted man. You just can say someone os compitant of flying after being out of the seat for 2 months and expect them to dog fight and nothing to happen. Nuff said

Edwin C. Kemp
NDT Level III
E & D Consulting Services
765-341-0029

·         15343953

Sep 5, 2008 2:59:02 AM

Flying is a dangerous business. Accidents happen. For a news reproter to say that they were not experienced enough is out of the question. If you are qualified to fly the airframe, how can you be too inexperienced to fly a training mission? It appears in your last paragraph, first line, you mispelled the word "has". Does that mean you are not qualified to write? I do not claim to be an expert when it comes to writing but that popped out at me.

Anyone who is flying an F-15 has passed the test to get into that airframe. Unfortuanately, accidents happen. Don't try to make it out to seem that someone was flying who shouldn't have been.

God bless both the pilots involved.

·         Jodcapes

Sep 5, 2008 7:34:05 AM

Yet another terrible and avoidable air tragedy that can be traced back to the basic items of lack of knowledge and skill. Just more examples of how the corporate structure of the USAF has steered away from proper flying training for not only their warfighters but all training to include technical training. When will leadership get the message?

·         Aspen34

Sep 5, 2008 7:53:23 AM

Yes accidents happen. From the SR71 world to AMC I've seen some crazy stuff. In the end, however, most were and are professionals wanting to train to the max in preparation for what we hope will never come to pass.
As a missile "cone head" type at one time, I hated the MPT but couldn't tell the difference after an hour in it from the real capsule, especially when you heard the dreaded, "you feel the capsule rocking and rolling" and you were off and running to war!
Pilot friends tell me nothing is like the real jet, yet reality says money/training time is tight.
Sr. leadership always has/will "push" those down below to the max, to maximize capabilities. I've seen some great training people in my 20 plus yrs and hope the tradition continues.
And for you young pilots out there just remember, fly the jet, stay in the cockpit, press on!

Phil
Retired AF Capt
w/prior enlisted time

·         9082891

Sep 5, 2008 8:21:15 AM

I work in the squadron with these two Eagle Drivers. And they are outstanding individuals and to say such horrible things about them without personally knowing them is wrong. Yes, it was an accident and we lost one life and two F-15C's. It sucks!!! Our Wing has had a ton of grief over this situation. God bless all of our aviators across the Military for undertaking such risk so we can have our freedom today!

·         JP8VaporHead

Sep 5, 2008 10:04:44 AM