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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: Reply to "Re: TIMSS questions"
Date: 06 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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Maybe you really don't understand the relationship, Alin, but our
Forefathers did, and hundreds of million of Christian Americans whose
children DID have spoken Christian prayers in their classrooms for
almost two centuries DID, and the majority of parents in both Taiwan
and Korea who DO have spoken Christian prayers in their public schools
today DO, and the Swiss whose students are among the highest scoring in
Europe and who DO have spoken Christian prayers in their classrooms DO,
and the data shows that there IS a direct relationship.
The evidence that Switzerland has the most effective Christian schools
in Europe is that their 12th graders scored 75 points higher in TIMSS
Geometry than their 8th graders scored in TIMSS Math, whereas our 12th
graders scored 75 points LOWER than our 8th graders did in TIMSS math.
How do you explain this?
How do you explain that all of these other people DO understand the
relationship between a good math education and religion/morals/ethics,
but you don't?  What do you think is responsible for this obvious
change in mindset, which corresponded precisely with the 98 point drop
in SAT scores?  Do you think it was physiological, or a chemical
reaction of some sort, or nuclear radiation, or fluoride in the water,
or steroids in the beef, or estrogen in birth control pills?
Is it only because we dumbed down our teachers?
Or do you believe that it just happened?
When all of the other factors are considered, it is apparent that this
drop in average SAT scores represents an actual decrease in IQ.  With
such a large decrease in IQ, it's no wonder that so many other
countries scored so much higher than us in TIMSS math.  And it's no
wonder that you don't understand something which our Forefathers
clearly understood very well more than two centuries ago.
Do you think our Forefathers were nuts, but that you already understand
so much more than them about this subject that "we should never go down
that path"?
John Knight
In article <s0vc5t4kjd5rs9a41e8crihsm4f50e7jje@4ax.com>,
  "alin" <alin@yahooc.om> wrote:
> I don't understand how prayer in school has anything to do with math
> education.
> But if we are going to argue that Christian value and ethic is good
for math
> education
> here, may I point out that Asian countries even though they are
generally
> better in
> student achievement in mathematics, are non religious in their public
> schools.  Whether
> banned or not, their schools do NOT have organized prayer of any sort.
>
> BTW, Christian is actually minority in part of the world, does that
> establish any necessary
> evidence to indicate that Christian religions are anti math
achievement, we
> should never go
> down that path.
>
> <manifesto@christianparty.net> wrote in message
> news:cdmb5tscr42jkjk679bvgqib9op2a0c48t@4ax.com...
> > In article <fc7a5tshuopf05716e2kk3umtjdh9e6pnc@4ax.com>,
> >   "Charles Deily" <bardei@massed.net> wrote:
> > > <manifesto@christianparty.net> wrote in message
> > > news:t9l75ts5v76nh2h1pbathu5j7ur054tl63@4ax.com...
> > > > From the minute spoken Christian prayers were banned from
public US
> > > > schools in 1963, SAT scores plunged the equivalent of 98
points, and
> > > > have never recovered.  In the meantime, the test scores of all
of
> > those
> > > > students in all of those countries who ARE permitted school
prayer,
> > and
> > > > who ARE taught ethics and morality, continue to, "miraculously",
> > rise.
> > > >
> > > > Restoring school prayer would also lead to the hiring of
qualified
> > math
> > > > teachers, which is also a prerequisite to teaching math
properly.
> > >
> > > John-
> > >
> > > This posting, along with your previous ones on women teachers and
> > your other
> > > bogeymen, is pure speculation.
> > > One of the first things I teach my eighth graders in our
statistics
> > unit is
> > > that "correlation is not causation."  The fact that two things are
> > happening
> > > at the same time and even in the same direction is not a mark
that one
> > > caused the other.
> >
> > Charles, it is correct that "correlation is not causation".
> >
> > But the mantra that the US education system teaches this under
> > virtually conveys the impression that correlation disproves
causation.
> > The fact is that correlation gives you a good clue about where to
look
> > for causation, and if correlation is this high, then the
probability is
> > high that (in this case) there is a link between banning school
prayer
> > and poor education quality.
> >
> > At least our Forefathers thought so, don't you think?  Do you think
> > they were just silly idealists?  Why did they implement "free
exercise
> > of religion", and why did Christians in this country have spoken
> > Christian prayers in their classrooms for two centuries prior to
1963,
> > and why did so many other social and economic indicators take a knee
> > jerk turn for the worst since then?
> >
> > Who benefitted by banning school prayer?
> >
> > > Yes, SAT scores have declined since the 1960's.  The number of
people
> > > attending college (as a percentage of the population) has also
> > increased.
> > > Most people with an understanding of normal distributions link
> > *these* two
> > > facts, a link that seems relatively defensible given the
mathematics.
> >
> > You are correct that there has been a decrease in the average SAT
> > scores of those going to college.  But the increase in the percent
of
> > minorities and women going to college explains only 25% of the
decrease
> > in *average* SAT scores overall.
> >
> > There is also the fact that the SAT scores of racial groups has also
> > decreased.  How do you explain that, and how do you explain the
other
> > 75% of the decrease?
> >
> > > You choose to link the decline in SAT scores to banning school
> > prayer.  Yes,
> > > these two happened at roughly the same time.  However, I could
link
> > banning
> > > school prayer with an increase in college attendence --  is
religion
> > bad for
> > > higher education?  Should parents pull their child from Sunday
school
> > to
> > > help Johnny's chances in college?  I think we'd both agree this is
> > silly.
> >
> >
> > It's not just silly.  It's contrary to the data.  The data shows
that
> > religion is GOOD for higher education, not bad for it.  If parents
want
> > to "help Johnny's chances in college", the data (and my own narrow
> > experience) shows that church (or "Sunday school") improves it
> > considerably.
> >
> >
> > > More, if this is true, how do you explain away the high
performance
> > of a
> > > "godless communist" country like China.  Secret school prayers?
> > >
> >
> > Do you have any data which shows how a "godless communist country
like
> > China" is doing in education?  I don't, and would greatly appreciate
> > your providing it.
> >
> > But the data we do have for the exact same ethnic group, the
Chinese in
> > Taiwan, whose students DO have spoken Christian prayers in their
> > classrooms, supports the point that you are trying to dismiss.  And
the
> > data we have for Korean students, whose students DO have spoken
> > Christian prayers in their classrooms, supports the point.  Both
> > countries scored much higher than us in IAEP, and Korean 8th grader
> > scord 107 points higher in TIMSS Math.  We don't even know how well
> > these countries do by the 12th grade, but considering that our 12th
> > graders score 75 points lower than our 8th graders on some of the
> > subjects that many other countries' 12th graders scored 75 points
> > higher than their 8th graders, the difference could be the
equivalent
> > of 250 TIMSS Math points.
> >
> > http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/d96/D96T396.html has the percent of 13 year
old
> > students who correctly answered the IAEP questions, which would
give a
> > mathematician like you better insight into the differences than raw
> > scores would.  Almost three quarters of Taiwanese and Korean
students
> > answered these questions correctly, compared to only half of our
> > students.  It suggests that even if you excluded the 12% of the
> > American students who are black, we would still be WAY off the mark.
> >
> > > Elsewhere on your page, you attack the attitude of "feel-good"
> > education,
> > > saying that this is detrimental to students and one of the reasons
> > why the
> > > US is so low ("For each 1% of students who feel "I am good at
math",
> > TIMSS
> > > Scores decrease 2 points" -
http://fathersmanifesto.com/iamgood.htm ,
> > a
> > > conclusion reached from a whopping *five* data points).  But US
boys
> > have a
> > > higher self-view than girls -- are the boys pulling our poor girls
> > down?
> >
> > You can make many conclusions from a "whopping" two data points, so
> > five is overkill in this case.  For example, we spend 7.9% of GDP
for
> > education, whereas Japan spends only 3.9% of GDP. You don't need a
> > single other data point to know that the argument that we don't
spend
> > enough for US education is bunk, because Japan stands as proof
positive
> > that it IS possible to spend half as much of one's national
resources
> > for education as we do, and still score 105 TIMSS points higher than
> > the US.
> >
> > Furthermore, if you are a statistician, then you should know that
> > refuting a "whopping *five* data points" requires you to produce at
> > least ONE data point to the contrary.
> >
> > Why didn't you do that?
> >
> > It doesn't exist. Nobody has ever been able to produce even one
which
> > refutes this.  But even if it existed, the point is that "raising
self
> > esteem" makes students "feel good" about themselves, and even makes
> > American students "think" that they know math--when both you and I
know
> > that the vast majority of them don't.
> >
> >
> > > Here's another link for you...the US, at the bottom of the TIMSS
> > study, also
> > > has the highest number of anti-Semetic web pages such as your own.
> > Are
> > > *you* responsible for our failings?  If you just want to point out
> > casual
> > > connections, that could be done as well.
> >
> > As a Semite, this is a subject which I would be MORE than glad to
> > address with you, but the moderator believes that it is unrelated to
> > American math education.  Unless your intention here is to throw
out an
> > ad hominem argument, contact me directly at
fathersmanifesto@yahoo.com
> > and I will point you in the right direction.
> >
> > > Perhaps you're even right on the women/math teaching connection,
> > though I
> > > doubt it.  Sometimes correlation *is* causation.  How, then, can
we
> > get more
> > > male teachers into schools?  Most of my friends who went through
> > engineering
> > > school with me have no desire to (1) teach, (2) lower their pay,
and
> > (3)
> > > deal with parents like you who feel that they know better what the
> > problems
> > > are and how to fix them.
> > >
> >
> > What do you think the odds are that there is a correlation if r-
squared
> > is 0.68?
> > http://fathersmanifesto.com/timssmaleteachersg7.htm
> >
> > > Correlation is not causation.  My eighth graders know it.  I
assume
> > you know
> > > it too.  If you are truly interested in improving mathematics
> > education in
> > > the US, please refocus your attention, discard the irrationalities
> > and start
> > > making *relevant* suggestions about math.  No more of this...
> > >
> > > > Blaming our bad math education on large class sizes, low school
> > > > budgets, lack of teacher training, too much TV watching,
> > > > student "diversity", "low self esteem", limited efforts to amuse
> > > > (rather than educate) students, students themselves, and
parents, is
> > > > what is a waste of time.
> >
> > That is a summary of the conclusions of the US Department of
Education
> > regarding the TIMSS study.  If more American teachers read what the
US
> > Department of Education discovered about our own teachers and
students,
> > you wouldn't need to ask me to "discard the irrationalities".  Dr.
Gary
> > Phillips is one of those making these observations, so if you think
> > these are "irrationalities", then you should definitely discuss it
with
> > him  http://nces.ed.gov/commissioner/remarks2000/12_5_2000.asp
> >
> > If there was only ONE country in the world which scored more than
107
> > points higher than us, and if you knew that three quarters of the
> > teachers in that ONE country were men, and if you knew that less
than a
> > quarter of the teachers in this country were men, and if you knew
that
> > there was something like a 250 GRE point gap between the
quantitative
> > skills of the teachers in both countries, then how many more data
> > points would you need to analyze the problem properly?
> >
> > John Knight
--
Feminism is the lie that the American woman is the owner of two thirds
of the wealth in the nation which had the world's highest incomes, less
than 6% of workplace fatalities & prison inmates, custodian of nine
tenths of the children of divorce, a super-citizen by affirmative
action and "equal protection", 80% of federal beneficiaries, a non-
taxpayer; & a murder or suicide victim one fifth as often, lives 7
years longer, 11% more of the vote, than men; but is "discriminated
against".
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
--
submissions: post to k12.ed.math or e-mail to k12math@sd28.bc.ca
private e-mail to the k12.ed.math moderator: kem-moderator@thinkspot.net
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: Reply to "Re: TIMSS questions"
Date: 06 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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Maybe you really don't understand the relationship, Alin, but our
Forefathers did, and hundreds of million of Christian Americans whose
children DID have spoken Christian prayers in their classrooms for
almost two centuries DID, and the majority of parents in both Taiwan
and Korea who DO have spoken Christian prayers in their public schools
today DO, and the Swiss whose students are among the highest scoring in
Europe and who DO have spoken Christian prayers in their classrooms DO,
and the data shows that there IS a direct relationship.
The evidence that Switzerland has the most effective Christian schools
in Europe is that their 12th graders scored 75 points higher in TIMSS
Geometry than their 8th graders scored in TIMSS Math, whereas our 12th
graders scored 75 points LOWER than our 8th graders did in TIMSS math.
How do you explain this?
How do you explain that all of these other people DO understand the
relationship between a good math education and religion/morals/ethics,
but you don't?  What do you think is responsible for this obvious
change in mindset, which corresponded precisely with the 98 point drop
in SAT scores?  Do you think it was physiological, or a chemical
reaction of some sort, or nuclear radiation, or fluoride in the water,
or steroids in the beef, or estrogen in birth control pills?
Is it only because we dumbed down our teachers?
Or do you believe that it just happened?
When all of the other factors are considered, it is apparent that this
drop in average SAT scores represents an actual decrease in IQ.  With
such a large decrease in IQ, it's no wonder that so many other
countries scored so much higher than us in TIMSS math.  And it's no
wonder that you don't understand something which our Forefathers
clearly understood very well more than two centuries ago.
Do you think our Forefathers were nuts, but that you already understand
so much more than them about this subject that "we should never go down
that path"?
John Knight
In article <s0vc5t4kjd5rs9a41e8crihsm4f50e7jje@4ax.com>,
  "alin" <alin@yahooc.om> wrote:
> I don't understand how prayer in school has anything to do with math
> education.
> But if we are going to argue that Christian value and ethic is good
for math
> education
> here, may I point out that Asian countries even though they are
generally
> better in
> student achievement in mathematics, are non religious in their public
> schools.  Whether
> banned or not, their schools do NOT have organized prayer of any sort.
>
> BTW, Christian is actually minority in part of the world, does that
> establish any necessary
> evidence to indicate that Christian religions are anti math
achievement, we
> should never go
> down that path.
>
> <manifesto@christianparty.net> wrote in message
> news:cdmb5tscr42jkjk679bvgqib9op2a0c48t@4ax.com...
> > In article <fc7a5tshuopf05716e2kk3umtjdh9e6pnc@4ax.com>,
> >   "Charles Deily" <bardei@massed.net> wrote:
> > > <manifesto@christianparty.net> wrote in message
> > > news:t9l75ts5v76nh2h1pbathu5j7ur054tl63@4ax.com...
> > > > From the minute spoken Christian prayers were banned from
public US
> > > > schools in 1963, SAT scores plunged the equivalent of 98
points, and
> > > > have never recovered.  In the meantime, the test scores of all
of
> > those
> > > > students in all of those countries who ARE permitted school
prayer,
> > and
> > > > who ARE taught ethics and morality, continue to, "miraculously",
> > rise.
> > > >
> > > > Restoring school prayer would also lead to the hiring of
qualified
> > math
> > > > teachers, which is also a prerequisite to teaching math
properly.
> > >
> > > John-
> > >
> > > This posting, along with your previous ones on women teachers and
> > your other
> > > bogeymen, is pure speculation.
> > > One of the first things I teach my eighth graders in our
statistics
> > unit is
> > > that "correlation is not causation."  The fact that two things are
> > happening
> > > at the same time and even in the same direction is not a mark
that one
> > > caused the other.
> >
> > Charles, it is correct that "correlation is not causation".
> >
> > But the mantra that the US education system teaches this under
> > virtually conveys the impression that correlation disproves
causation.
> > The fact is that correlation gives you a good clue about where to
look
> > for causation, and if correlation is this high, then the
probability is
> > high that (in this case) there is a link between banning school
prayer
> > and poor education quality.
> >
> > At least our Forefathers thought so, don't you think?  Do you think
> > they were just silly idealists?  Why did they implement "free
exercise
> > of religion", and why did Christians in this country have spoken
> > Christian prayers in their classrooms for two centuries prior to
1963,
> > and why did so many other social and economic indicators take a knee
> > jerk turn for the worst since then?
> >
> > Who benefitted by banning school prayer?
> >
> > > Yes, SAT scores have declined since the 1960's.  The number of
people
> > > attending college (as a percentage of the population) has also
> > increased.
> > > Most people with an understanding of normal distributions link
> > *these* two
> > > facts, a link that seems relatively defensible given the
mathematics.
> >
> > You are correct that there has been a decrease in the average SAT
> > scores of those going to college.  But the increase in the percent
of
> > minorities and women going to college explains only 25% of the
decrease
> > in *average* SAT scores overall.
> >
> > There is also the fact that the SAT scores of racial groups has also
> > decreased.  How do you explain that, and how do you explain the
other
> > 75% of the decrease?
> >
> > > You choose to link the decline in SAT scores to banning school
> > prayer.  Yes,
> > > these two happened at roughly the same time.  However, I could
link
> > banning
> > > school prayer with an increase in college attendence --  is
religion
> > bad for
> > > higher education?  Should parents pull their child from Sunday
school
> > to
> > > help Johnny's chances in college?  I think we'd both agree this is
> > silly.
> >
> >
> > It's not just silly.  It's contrary to the data.  The data shows
that
> > religion is GOOD for higher education, not bad for it.  If parents
want
> > to "help Johnny's chances in college", the data (and my own narrow
> > experience) shows that church (or "Sunday school") improves it
> > considerably.
> >
> >
> > > More, if this is true, how do you explain away the high
performance
> > of a
> > > "godless communist" country like China.  Secret school prayers?
> > >
> >
> > Do you have any data which shows how a "godless communist country
like
> > China" is doing in education?  I don't, and would greatly appreciate
> > your providing it.
> >
> > But the data we do have for the exact same ethnic group, the
Chinese in
> > Taiwan, whose students DO have spoken Christian prayers in their
> > classrooms, supports the point that you are trying to dismiss.  And
the
> > data we have for Korean students, whose students DO have spoken
> > Christian prayers in their classrooms, supports the point.  Both
> > countries scored much higher than us in IAEP, and Korean 8th grader
> > scord 107 points higher in TIMSS Math.  We don't even know how well
> > these countries do by the 12th grade, but considering that our 12th
> > graders score 75 points lower than our 8th graders on some of the
> > subjects that many other countries' 12th graders scored 75 points
> > higher than their 8th graders, the difference could be the
equivalent
> > of 250 TIMSS Math points.
> >
> > http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/d96/D96T396.html has the percent of 13 year
old
> > students who correctly answered the IAEP questions, which would
give a
> > mathematician like you better insight into the differences than raw
> > scores would.  Almost three quarters of Taiwanese and Korean
students
> > answered these questions correctly, compared to only half of our
> > students.  It suggests that even if you excluded the 12% of the
> > American students who are black, we would still be WAY off the mark.
> >
> > > Elsewhere on your page, you attack the attitude of "feel-good"
> > education,
> > > saying that this is detrimental to students and one of the reasons
> > why the
> > > US is so low ("For each 1% of students who feel "I am good at
math",
> > TIMSS
> > > Scores decrease 2 points" -
http://fathersmanifesto.com/iamgood.htm ,
> > a
> > > conclusion reached from a whopping *five* data points).  But US
boys
> > have a
> > > higher self-view than girls -- are the boys pulling our poor girls
> > down?
> >
> > You can make many conclusions from a "whopping" two data points, so
> > five is overkill in this case.  For example, we spend 7.9% of GDP
for
> > education, whereas Japan spends only 3.9% of GDP. You don't need a
> > single other data point to know that the argument that we don't
spend
> > enough for US education is bunk, because Japan stands as proof
positive
> > that it IS possible to spend half as much of one's national
resources
> > for education as we do, and still score 105 TIMSS points higher than
> > the US.
> >
> > Furthermore, if you are a statistician, then you should know that
> > refuting a "whopping *five* data points" requires you to produce at
> > least ONE data point to the contrary.
> >
> > Why didn't you do that?
> >
> > It doesn't exist. Nobody has ever been able to produce even one
which
> > refutes this.  But even if it existed, the point is that "raising
self
> > esteem" makes students "feel good" about themselves, and even makes
> > American students "think" that they know math--when both you and I
know
> > that the vast majority of them don't.
> >
> >
> > > Here's another link for you...the US, at the bottom of the TIMSS
> > study, also
> > > has the highest number of anti-Semetic web pages such as your own.
> > Are
> > > *you* responsible for our failings?  If you just want to point out
> > casual
> > > connections, that could be done as well.
> >
> > As a Semite, this is a subject which I would be MORE than glad to
> > address with you, but the moderator believes that it is unrelated to
> > American math education.  Unless your intention here is to throw
out an
> > ad hominem argument, contact me directly at
fathersmanifesto@yahoo.com
> > and I will point you in the right direction.
> >
> > > Perhaps you're even right on the women/math teaching connection,
> > though I
> > > doubt it.  Sometimes correlation *is* causation.  How, then, can
we
> > get more
> > > male teachers into schools?  Most of my friends who went through
> > engineering
> > > school with me have no desire to (1) teach, (2) lower their pay,
and
> > (3)
> > > deal with parents like you who feel that they know better what the
> > problems
> > > are and how to fix them.
> > >
> >
> > What do you think the odds are that there is a correlation if r-
squared
> > is 0.68?
> > http://fathersmanifesto.com/timssmaleteachersg7.htm
> >
> > > Correlation is not causation.  My eighth graders know it.  I
assume
> > you know
> > > it too.  If you are truly interested in improving mathematics
> > education in
> > > the US, please refocus your attention, discard the irrationalities
> > and start
> > > making *relevant* suggestions about math.  No more of this...
> > >
> > > > Blaming our bad math education on large class sizes, low school
> > > > budgets, lack of teacher training, too much TV watching,
> > > > student "diversity", "low self esteem", limited efforts to amuse
> > > > (rather than educate) students, students themselves, and
parents, is
> > > > what is a waste of time.
> >
> > That is a summary of the conclusions of the US Department of
Education
> > regarding the TIMSS study.  If more American teachers read what the
US
> > Department of Education discovered about our own teachers and
students,
> > you wouldn't need to ask me to "discard the irrationalities".  Dr.
Gary
> > Phillips is one of those making these observations, so if you think
> > these are "irrationalities", then you should definitely discuss it
with
> > him  http://nces.ed.gov/commissioner/remarks2000/12_5_2000.asp
> >
> > If there was only ONE country in the world which scored more than
107
> > points higher than us, and if you knew that three quarters of the
> > teachers in that ONE country were men, and if you knew that less
than a
> > quarter of the teachers in this country were men, and if you knew
that
> > there was something like a 250 GRE point gap between the
quantitative
> > skills of the teachers in both countries, then how many more data
> > points would you need to analyze the problem properly?
> >
> > John Knight
--
Feminism is the lie that the American woman is the owner of two thirds
of the wealth in the nation which had the world's highest incomes, less
than 6% of workplace fatalities & prison inmates, custodian of nine
tenths of the children of divorce, a super-citizen by affirmative
action and "equal protection", 80% of federal beneficiaries, a non-
taxpayer; & a murder or suicide victim one fifth as often, lives 7
years longer, 11% more of the vote, than men; but is "discriminated
against".
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
--
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: Reply to "Re: TIMSS questions"
Date: 06 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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Maybe you really don't understand the relationship, Alin, but our
Forefathers did, and hundreds of million of Christian Americans whose
children DID have spoken Christian prayers in their classrooms for
almost two centuries DID, and the majority of parents in both Taiwan
and Korea who DO have spoken Christian prayers in their public schools
today DO, and the Swiss whose students are among the highest scoring in
Europe and who DO have spoken Christian prayers in their classrooms DO,
and the data shows that there IS a direct relationship.
The evidence that Switzerland has the most effective Christian schools
in Europe is that their 12th graders scored 75 points higher in TIMSS
Geometry than their 8th graders scored in TIMSS Math, whereas our 12th
graders scored 75 points LOWER than our 8th graders did in TIMSS math.
How do you explain this?
How do you explain that all of these other people DO understand the
relationship between a good math education and religion/morals/ethics,
but you don't?  What do you think is responsible for this obvious
change in mindset, which corresponded precisely with the 98 point drop
in SAT scores?  Do you think it was physiological, or a chemical
reaction of some sort, or nuclear radiation, or fluoride in the water,
or steroids in the beef, or estrogen in birth control pills?
Is it only because we dumbed down our teachers?
Or do you believe that it just happened?
When all of the other factors are considered, it is apparent that this
drop in average SAT scores represents an actual decrease in IQ.  With
such a large decrease in IQ, it's no wonder that so many other
countries scored so much higher than us in TIMSS math.  And it's no
wonder that you don't understand something which our Forefathers
clearly understood very well more than two centuries ago.
Do you think our Forefathers were nuts, but that you already understand
so much more than them about this subject that "we should never go down
that path"?
John Knight
In article <s0vc5t4kjd5rs9a41e8crihsm4f50e7jje@4ax.com>,
  "alin" <alin@yahooc.om> wrote:
> I don't understand how prayer in school has anything to do with math
> education.
> But if we are going to argue that Christian value and ethic is good
for math
> education
> here, may I point out that Asian countries even though they are
generally
> better in
> student achievement in mathematics, are non religious in their public
> schools.  Whether
> banned or not, their schools do NOT have organized prayer of any sort.
>
> BTW, Christian is actually minority in part of the world, does that
> establish any necessary
> evidence to indicate that Christian religions are anti math
achievement, we
> should never go
> down that path.
>
> <manifesto@christianparty.net> wrote in message
> news:cdmb5tscr42jkjk679bvgqib9op2a0c48t@4ax.com...
> > In article <fc7a5tshuopf05716e2kk3umtjdh9e6pnc@4ax.com>,
> >   "Charles Deily" <bardei@massed.net> wrote:
> > > <manifesto@christianparty.net> wrote in message
> > > news:t9l75ts5v76nh2h1pbathu5j7ur054tl63@4ax.com...
> > > > From the minute spoken Christian prayers were banned from
public US
> > > > schools in 1963, SAT scores plunged the equivalent of 98
points, and
> > > > have never recovered.  In the meantime, the test scores of all
of
> > those
> > > > students in all of those countries who ARE permitted school
prayer,
> > and
> > > > who ARE taught ethics and morality, continue to, "miraculously",
> > rise.
> > > >
> > > > Restoring school prayer would also lead to the hiring of
qualified
> > math
> > > > teachers, which is also a prerequisite to teaching math
properly.
> > >
> > > John-
> > >
> > > This posting, along with your previous ones on women teachers and
> > your other
> > > bogeymen, is pure speculation.
> > > One of the first things I teach my eighth graders in our
statistics
> > unit is
> > > that "correlation is not causation."  The fact that two things are
> > happening
> > > at the same time and even in the same direction is not a mark
that one
> > > caused the other.
> >
> > Charles, it is correct that "correlation is not causation".
> >
> > But the mantra that the US education system teaches this under
> > virtually conveys the impression that correlation disproves
causation.
> > The fact is that correlation gives you a good clue about where to
look
> > for causation, and if correlation is this high, then the
probability is
> > high that (in this case) there is a link between banning school
prayer
> > and poor education quality.
> >
> > At least our Forefathers thought so, don't you think?  Do you think
> > they were just silly idealists?  Why did they implement "free
exercise
> > of religion", and why did Christians in this country have spoken
> > Christian prayers in their classrooms for two centuries prior to
1963,
> > and why did so many other social and economic indicators take a knee
> > jerk turn for the worst since then?
> >
> > Who benefitted by banning school prayer?
> >
> > > Yes, SAT scores have declined since the 1960's.  The number of
people
> > > attending college (as a percentage of the population) has also
> > increased.
> > > Most people with an understanding of normal distributions link
> > *these* two
> > > facts, a link that seems relatively defensible given the
mathematics.
> >
> > You are correct that there has been a decrease in the average SAT
> > scores of those going to college.  But the increase in the percent
of
> > minorities and women going to college explains only 25% of the
decrease
> > in *average* SAT scores overall.
> >
> > There is also the fact that the SAT scores of racial groups has also
> > decreased.  How do you explain that, and how do you explain the
other
> > 75% of the decrease?
> >
> > > You choose to link the decline in SAT scores to banning school
> > prayer.  Yes,
> > > these two happened at roughly the same time.  However, I could
link
> > banning
> > > school prayer with an increase in college attendence --  is
religion
> > bad for
> > > higher education?  Should parents pull their child from Sunday
school
> > to
> > > help Johnny's chances in college?  I think we'd both agree this is
> > silly.
> >
> >
> > It's not just silly.  It's contrary to the data.  The data shows
that
> > religion is GOOD for higher education, not bad for it.  If parents
want
> > to "help Johnny's chances in college", the data (and my own narrow
> > experience) shows that church (or "Sunday school") improves it
> > considerably.
> >
> >
> > > More, if this is true, how do you explain away the high
performance
> > of a
> > > "godless communist" country like China.  Secret school prayers?
> > >
> >
> > Do you have any data which shows how a "godless communist country
like
> > China" is doing in education?  I don't, and would greatly appreciate
> > your providing it.
> >
> > But the data we do have for the exact same ethnic group, the
Chinese in
> > Taiwan, whose students DO have spoken Christian prayers in their
> > classrooms, supports the point that you are trying to dismiss.  And
the
> > data we have for Korean students, whose students DO have spoken
> > Christian prayers in their classrooms, supports the point.  Both
> > countries scored much higher than us in IAEP, and Korean 8th grader
> > scord 107 points higher in TIMSS Math.  We don't even know how well
> > these countries do by the 12th grade, but considering that our 12th
> > graders score 75 points lower than our 8th graders on some of the
> > subjects that many other countries' 12th graders scored 75 points
> > higher than their 8th graders, the difference could be the
equivalent
> > of 250 TIMSS Math points.
> >
> > http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/d96/D96T396.html has the percent of 13 year
old
> > students who correctly answered the IAEP questions, which would
give a
> > mathematician like you better insight into the differences than raw
> > scores would.  Almost three quarters of Taiwanese and Korean
students
> > answered these questions correctly, compared to only half of our
> > students.  It suggests that even if you excluded the 12% of the
> > American students who are black, we would still be WAY off the mark.
> >
> > > Elsewhere on your page, you attack the attitude of "feel-good"
> > education,
> > > saying that this is detrimental to students and one of the reasons
> > why the
> > > US is so low ("For each 1% of students who feel "I am good at
math",
> > TIMSS
> > > Scores decrease 2 points" -
http://fathersmanifesto.com/iamgood.htm ,
> > a
> > > conclusion reached from a whopping *five* data points).  But US
boys
> > have a
> > > higher self-view than girls -- are the boys pulling our poor girls
> > down?
> >
> > You can make many conclusions from a "whopping" two data points, so
> > five is overkill in this case.  For example, we spend 7.9% of GDP
for
> > education, whereas Japan spends only 3.9% of GDP. You don't need a
> > single other data point to know that the argument that we don't
spend
> > enough for US education is bunk, because Japan stands as proof
positive
> > that it IS possible to spend half as much of one's national
resources
> > for education as we do, and still score 105 TIMSS points higher than
> > the US.
> >
> > Furthermore, if you are a statistician, then you should know that
> > refuting a "whopping *five* data points" requires you to produce at
> > least ONE data point to the contrary.
> >
> > Why didn't you do that?
> >
> > It doesn't exist. Nobody has ever been able to produce even one
which
> > refutes this.  But even if it existed, the point is that "raising
self
> > esteem" makes students "feel good" about themselves, and even makes
> > American students "think" that they know math--when both you and I
know
> > that the vast majority of them don't.
> >
> >
> > > Here's another link for you...the US, at the bottom of the TIMSS
> > study, also
> > > has the highest number of anti-Semetic web pages such as your own.
> > Are
> > > *you* responsible for our failings?  If you just want to point out
> > casual
> > > connections, that could be done as well.
> >
> > As a Semite, this is a subject which I would be MORE than glad to
> > address with you, but the moderator believes that it is unrelated to
> > American math education.  Unless your intention here is to throw
out an
> > ad hominem argument, contact me directly at
fathersmanifesto@yahoo.com
> > and I will point you in the right direction.
> >
> > > Perhaps you're even right on the women/math teaching connection,
> > though I
> > > doubt it.  Sometimes correlation *is* causation.  How, then, can
we
> > get more
> > > male teachers into schools?  Most of my friends who went through
> > engineering
> > > school with me have no desire to (1) teach, (2) lower their pay,
and
> > (3)
> > > deal with parents like you who feel that they know better what the
> > problems
> > > are and how to fix them.
> > >
> >
> > What do you think the odds are that there is a correlation if r-
squared
> > is 0.68?
> > http://fathersmanifesto.com/timssmaleteachersg7.htm
> >
> > > Correlation is not causation.  My eighth graders know it.  I
assume
> > you know
> > > it too.  If you are truly interested in improving mathematics
> > education in
> > > the US, please refocus your attention, discard the irrationalities
> > and start
> > > making *relevant* suggestions about math.  No more of this...
> > >
> > > > Blaming our bad math education on large class sizes, low school
> > > > budgets, lack of teacher training, too much TV watching,
> > > > student "diversity", "low self esteem", limited efforts to amuse
> > > > (rather than educate) students, students themselves, and
parents, is
> > > > what is a waste of time.
> >
> > That is a summary of the conclusions of the US Department of
Education
> > regarding the TIMSS study.  If more American teachers read what the
US
> > Department of Education discovered about our own teachers and
students,
> > you wouldn't need to ask me to "discard the irrationalities".  Dr.
Gary
> > Phillips is one of those making these observations, so if you think
> > these are "irrationalities", then you should definitely discuss it
with
> > him  http://nces.ed.gov/commissioner/remarks2000/12_5_2000.asp
> >
> > If there was only ONE country in the world which scored more than
107
> > points higher than us, and if you knew that three quarters of the
> > teachers in that ONE country were men, and if you knew that less
than a
> > quarter of the teachers in this country were men, and if you knew
that
> > there was something like a 250 GRE point gap between the
quantitative
> > skills of the teachers in both countries, then how many more data
> > points would you need to analyze the problem properly?
> >
> > John Knight
--
Feminism is the lie that the American woman is the owner of two thirds
of the wealth in the nation which had the world's highest incomes, less
than 6% of workplace fatalities & prison inmates, custodian of nine
tenths of the children of divorce, a super-citizen by affirmative
action and "equal protection", 80% of federal beneficiaries, a non-
taxpayer; & a murder or suicide victim one fifth as often, lives 7
years longer, 11% more of the vote, than men; but is "discriminated
against".
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
--
submissions: post to k12.ed.math or e-mail to k12math@sd28.bc.ca
private e-mail to the k12.ed.math moderator: kem-moderator@thinkspot.net
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: TIMSS-R Results Released
Date: 06 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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It's not 100% clear what you were saying here, Alin, so let me try to
paraphrase what you wrote to see if this is what you meant:
"The more a student learns about how much there is to learn, the more
likely they are to understand how much they don't know, so the less
confident they are in their ability to learn everything that they want
to learn, which reduces their 'self esteem' at the same time that it
increases their desire to learn even more, which makes them the most
accomplished students even though they achieved lower 'self esteem' in
the process."?  Is this correct?
But there is another side of this argument, which is that knocking the
arrogant chip off of an American student's shoulder, along with
knocking the arrogant chip off of his teacher's shoulder, is the only
way to force both of them to come face to face with the facts:  that
they are both seriously mathematically challenged compared with the
majority of the students in the countries which took TIMSS.
Students in the highest scoring countries are taught this lesson early,
on purpose, day after day, not with the goal of "lowering their self
esteem" [which from an American "teachers'" perspective it does], but
with the goal of motivating them to challenge themselves to learn math.
Our teachers almost universally (both public and private) take the
exact opposite approach, thus they trivialize the importance of a
proper math education, so they end up producing some very arrogant
students who can't even add two and three but the majority of whom
feel "I am good at math".
This is really the worst of both worlds.
John Knight


In article <m4l75t4imbuti4tb6frtg64mgrqr5er1ud@4ax.com>,
  "News" <alin@yahooc.om> wrote:
> I do echo that the focus on self-esteem is part of the problem.
> The theory is that if a person is stupid enough he wouldn't know
> he's stupid.  Or the opposite that the more a person have learned
> she would know that there are more to learn.
>
> When students are taught to more topics than they can, they will
> feel frustration and defeat.  But at the same time, what's more that
> they have learned do contribute to the achievement.
>
> <manifesto@christianparty.net> wrote in message
> news:tcdj3tchcbj5shrip2jmd44ggvg9u19fh1@4ax.com...
> > In article <psog3t4np8g24g8eh1s49r2emsouv12sjk@4ax.com>,
> >   Richard Askey <askey@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
> > >   Let me recommend that John Knight read the book "Knowing and
> > > Teaching Elementary Mathematics" by Liping Ma, published by
> > > Lawrence Erlbaum in 1999.  She is a former elementary school
> > > teacher in China, then a principal and math supervisor, who
> > > came to the United States about 1990 to get a Ph.D. in mathematics
> > > education.  This book, much more than the statistics Mr. Knight
> > > has posted, helps explain much of our problem in mathematics
> > > education.
> > >   One of the questions Ma used in her thesis work was to divide
> > > 1 3/4 by 1/2 and then make up a story problem to illustrate this.
> > > Very few of the American teachers and students studying to be
> > > teachers who were surveyed in Deborah Ball's research on which
> > > Ma's work was based were able to make up a correct story problem.
> > > Contrast this with something discovered in a survey of teachers
> > > whose students took the TIMSS-R test.  The teachers were asked
> > > if they felt very well qualified to teach 12 different areas of
> > > mathematics.  The US average was 90% who felt qualified, but it
> > > varied by topic.  90% was second highest of the 33 countries who
> > > asked these questions.  For fractions, 99% of the U.S.
> > > teachers felt very well prepared to teach fractions, decimals and
> > > percentages.  This compares with an international average of
> > > 82% and 15% for Japanese teachers.  I cannot explain these
numbers,
> > > but suspect that U.S. teachers feel that if they can work the
> > > problems they are very well prepared to teach a subject.  Clearly
> > > that is not the case with Japanese teachers.
> > >    I found the press release which started this thread to be a
> > > complete distortion of the facts.  Yes, we were "above average",
> > > but only because of the 10 new countries which participated in
> > > TIMSS-R, seven of them scored lower than our country.  Of the
> > > 23 countries which participated in both TIMSS and TIMSS-R, 13
> > > scored significantly higher than we did in TIMSS-R compared with
> > > 14 in TIMSS.  Bulgaria slipped a little.  In the group which
> > > was not statistically different we scored third in both, with
> > > England and New Zealand dropping below us and Latvia (Latvian
> > > students only) moved ahead of us.  This does not look like above
> > > average to me.  The fact that our students did not change was
> > > buried in the middle of the press release.  Why does the Dept.
> > > of Education feel a need to distort information?
> > >   Dick Askey
> > >
> >
> >
> > Excellent points, Dick,
> >
> > Not only should the US Department of Education scrap all of their
> > massive false advertising campaigns claiming that the US
has "average"
> > TIMSS test scores, but they should also be legally barred from
> > continuing to make a mockery of the English language by heading up
> > their web pages with the words:
> >
> >      "Pursuing Excellence".
> >
> >
> > Even "Pursuing Mediocrity" would be completely, intentionally
> > misleading.
> >
> > The most accurate title would be:
> >
> >     "Abandoning All Reason In Pursuit of Gender Equality".
> >
> > The reason our teachers "think" that they are so smart in math at
the
> > same time that they do such a miserable job of educating children
is an
> > abject arrogance which took 50 years of "liberal" cultivation to
> > achieve.  Unfortunately, this also rubbed off on our students
because,
> > even though they score dead last in most math subjects, 68% of
> > them "feel I am good at math".
> > http://fathersmanifesto.com/iamgood.htm
> >
> > Conversely, only 23% of Korean students "feel" so good at math, but
> > they consistently score much higher than our students (107 points
> > higher in 8th grade TIMSS Math).
> >
> > 49% of Irish students "feel" this way, but they score 27 points
higher
> > than us at the 8th grade level.
> >
> > The smarter we "feel" we are, the stupider we are, which is why
talking
> > to educators about education quality is less productive than
talking to
> > a tree.
> >
> > btw, there are many countries around the world who are worth
comparing
> > our teaching methods to, but China ain't one of them.  Japan and
Korea
> > are at the opposite end of China on the intellectual as well as the
> > productivity/earnings scale.
> >
> > It would be a major mistake to focus on China and ignore Japan,
> > particularly considering the high quality but low cost of Japan's
> > education system.
> >
> > John Knight
--
Feminism is the lie that the American woman is the owner of two thirds
of the wealth in the nation which had the world's highest incomes, less
than 6% of workplace fatalities & prison inmates, custodian of nine
tenths of the children of divorce, a super-citizen by affirmative
action and "equal protection", 80% of federal beneficiaries, a non-
taxpayer; & a murder or suicide victim one fifth as often, lives 7
years longer, 11% more of the vote, than men; but is "discriminated
against".
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: Reply to "Re: TIMSS questions"
Date: 05 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <fc7a5tshuopf05716e2kk3umtjdh9e6pnc@4ax.com>,
  "Charles Deily" <bardei@massed.net> wrote:
> <manifesto@christianparty.net> wrote in message
> news:t9l75ts5v76nh2h1pbathu5j7ur054tl63@4ax.com...
> > From the minute spoken Christian prayers were banned from public US
> > schools in 1963, SAT scores plunged the equivalent of 98 points, and
> > have never recovered.  In the meantime, the test scores of all of
those
> > students in all of those countries who ARE permitted school prayer,
and
> > who ARE taught ethics and morality, continue to, "miraculously",
rise.
> >
> > Restoring school prayer would also lead to the hiring of qualified
math
> > teachers, which is also a prerequisite to teaching math properly.
>
> John-
>
> This posting, along with your previous ones on women teachers and
your other
> bogeymen, is pure speculation.
>
> One of the first things I teach my eighth graders in our statistics
unit is
> that "correlation is not causation."  The fact that two things are
happening
> at the same time and even in the same direction is not a mark that one
> caused the other.
>
Charles, it is correct that "correlation is not causation".
But the mantra that the US education system teaches this under
virtually conveys the impression that correlation disproves causation.
The fact is that correlation gives you a good clue about where to look
for causation, and if correlation is this high, then the probability is
high that (in this case) there is a link between banning school prayer
and poor education quality.
At least our Forefathers thought so, don't you think?  Do you think
they were just silly idealists?  Why did they implement "free exercise
of religion", and why did Christians in this country have spoken
Christian prayers in their classrooms for two centuries prior to 1963,
and why did so many other social and economic indicators take a knee
jerk turn for the worst since then?
Who benefitted by banning school prayer?

> Yes, SAT scores have declined since the 1960's.  The number of people
> attending college (as a percentage of the population) has also
increased.
> Most people with an understanding of normal distributions link
*these* two
> facts, a link that seems relatively defensible given the mathematics.
>
You are correct that there has been a decrease in the average SAT
scores of those going to college.  But the increase in the percent of
minorities and women going to college explains only 25% of the decrease
in *average* SAT scores overall.
There is also the fact that the SAT scores of racial groups has also
decreased.  How do you explain that, and how do you explain the other
75% of the decrease?
> You choose to link the decline in SAT scores to banning school
prayer.  Yes,
> these two happened at roughly the same time.  However, I could link
banning
> school prayer with an increase in college attendence --  is religion
bad for
> higher education?  Should parents pull their child from Sunday school
to
> help Johnny's chances in college?  I think we'd both agree this is
silly.
It's not just silly.  It's contrary to the data.  The data shows that
religion is GOOD for higher education, not bad for it.  If parents want
to "help Johnny's chances in college", the data (and my own narrow
experience) shows that church (or "Sunday school") improves it
considerably.
> More, if this is true, how do you explain away the high performance
of a
> "godless communist" country like China.  Secret school prayers?
>
Do you have any data which shows how a "godless communist country like
China" is doing in education?  I don't, and would greatly appreciate
your providing it.
But the data we do have for the exact same ethnic group, the Chinese in
Taiwan, whose students DO have spoken Christian prayers in their
classrooms, supports the point that you are trying to dismiss.  And the
data we have for Korean students, whose students DO have spoken
Christian prayers in their classrooms, supports the point.  Both
countries scored much higher than us in IAEP, and Korean 8th grader
scord 107 points higher in TIMSS Math.  We don't even know how well
these countries do by the 12th grade, but considering that our 12th
graders score 75 points lower than our 8th graders on some of the
subjects that many other countries' 12th graders scored 75 points
higher than their 8th graders, the difference could be the equivalent
of 250 TIMSS Math points.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/d96/D96T396.html has the percent of 13 year old
students who correctly answered the IAEP questions, which would give a
mathematician like you better insight into the differences than raw
scores would.  Almost three quarters of Taiwanese and Korean students
answered these questions correctly, compared to only half of our
students.  It suggests that even if you excluded the 12% of the
American students who are black, we would still be WAY off the mark.
> Elsewhere on your page, you attack the attitude of "feel-good"
education,
> saying that this is detrimental to students and one of the reasons
why the
> US is so low ("For each 1% of students who feel "I am good at math",
TIMSS
> Scores decrease 2 points" - http://fathersmanifesto.com/iamgood.htm ,
a
> conclusion reached from a whopping *five* data points).  But US boys
have a
> higher self-view than girls -- are the boys pulling our poor girls
down?
>
You can make many conclusions from a "whopping" two data points, so
five is overkill in this case.  For example, we spend 7.9% of GDP for
education, whereas Japan spends only 3.9% of GDP. You don't need a
single other data point to know that the argument that we don't spend
enough for US education is bunk, because Japan stands as proof positive
that it IS possible to spend half as much of one's national resources
for education as we do, and still score 105 TIMSS points higher than
the US.
Furthermore, if you are a statistician, then you should know that
refuting a "whopping *five* data points" requires you to produce at
least ONE data point to the contrary.
Why didn't you do that?
It doesn't exist. Nobody has ever been able to produce even one which
refutes this.  But even if it existed, the point is that "raising self
esteem" makes students "feel good" about themselves, and even makes
American students "think" that they know math--when both you and I know
that the vast majority of them don't.
> Here's another link for you...the US, at the bottom of the TIMSS
study, also
> has the highest number of anti-Semetic web pages such as your own.
Are
> *you* responsible for our failings?  If you just want to point out
casual
> connections, that could be done as well.
As a Semite, this is a subject which I would be MORE than glad to
address with you, but the moderator believes that it is unrelated to
American math education.  Unless your intention here is to throw out an
ad hominem argument, contact me directly at fathersmanifesto@yahoo.com
and I will point you in the right direction.
>
> Perhaps you're even right on the women/math teaching connection,
though I
> doubt it.  Sometimes correlation *is* causation.  How, then, can we
get more
> male teachers into schools?  Most of my friends who went through
engineering
> school with me have no desire to (1) teach, (2) lower their pay, and
(3)
> deal with parents like you who feel that they know better what the
problems
> are and how to fix them.
>
What do you think the odds are that there is a correlation if r-squared
is 0.68?
http://fathersmanifesto.com/timssmaleteachersg7.htm
> Correlation is not causation.  My eighth graders know it.  I assume
you know
> it too.  If you are truly interested in improving mathematics
education in
> the US, please refocus your attention, discard the irrationalities
and start
> making *relevant* suggestions about math.  No more of this...
>
> > Blaming our bad math education on large class sizes, low school
> > budgets, lack of teacher training, too much TV watching,
> > student "diversity", "low self esteem", limited efforts to amuse
> > (rather than educate) students, students themselves, and parents, is
> > what is a waste of time.
>
That is a summary of the conclusions of the US Department of Education
regarding the TIMSS study.  If more American teachers read what the US
Department of Education discovered about our own teachers and students,
you wouldn't need to ask me to "discard the irrationalities".  Dr. Gary
Phillips is one of those making these observations, so if you think
these are "irrationalities", then you should definitely discuss it with
him  http://nces.ed.gov/commissioner/remarks2000/12_5_2000.asp
If there was only ONE country in the world which scored more than 107
points higher than us, and if you knew that three quarters of the
teachers in that ONE country were men, and if you knew that less than a
quarter of the teachers in this country were men, and if you knew that
there was something like a 250 GRE point gap between the quantitative
skills of the teachers in both countries, then how many more data
points would you need to analyze the problem properly?
John Knight
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: Reply to "Re: TIMSS questions"
Date: 03 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <g7535tog8uis4miqehvdi6i60sgr569q6b@4ax.com>,
  manifesto@christianparty.net wrote:
> In article <hck05tk6tn4p7bm247ll3ubbfju474ih1m@4ax.com>,
>   MaireLawry <MaireLawry@cs.com> wrote:
> > Yes, sports.  I wonder if living under a dictatorship has something
to
> > do with it too.  I find it most depressing that Singapore and Korea
> > far outscore countries where the citizens are allowed to have some
> > say.
> >
>
> Maire,
>
> If you're in England, then you must have some kind of an inkling of
how
> that story about the US having "freedoms" that no other countries have
> is rubbish (to use an "English" word).
>
> My experience has been that students in Korea and Singapore (and Japan
> and Germany and England and France, and even in Russia to some extent)
> have more "freedoms" than our students because there is much less
> crime, less intimidation by fellow students, less harassment for being
> studious, and more support from other students, parents, and teachers
> for students who are attempting to learn.
>
> There was a time when it seemed that there must be some hidden magic
to
> the way US education worked, because other countries take education so
> much more seriously and have much better education policies.  But that
> was before TIMSS proved that this was an illusion--our system does NOT
> work in any category--not in academics, not spirituality, and not in
> ethics.
>
> John Knight
>
> [moderator's note: Please let's try to keep this on track.
Discussions in this
> newsgroup should adhere specifically to mathematics education, and
not the
> education system in general.]

THIS is precisely the problem with trying to teach math in the
US "education" system.
You can't learn math if you don't first learn ethics and morality.
It's like trying to build a bridge in a swamp, or making sand castles
under water.
From the minute spoken Christian prayers were banned from public US
schools in 1963, SAT scores plunged the equivalent of 98 points, and
have never recovered.  In the meantime, the test scores of all of those
students in all of those countries who ARE permitted school prayer, and
who ARE taught ethics and morality, continue to, "miraculously", rise.
Restoring school prayer would also lead to the hiring of qualified math
teachers, which is also a prerequisite to teaching math properly.
Blaming our bad math education on large class sizes, low school
budgets, lack of teacher training, too much TV watching,
student "diversity", "low self esteem", limited efforts to amuse
(rather than educate) students, students themselves, and parents, is
what is a waste of time.
John Knight
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: Reply to "Re: TIMSS questions"
Date: 02 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <hck05tk6tn4p7bm247ll3ubbfju474ih1m@4ax.com>,
  MaireLawry <MaireLawry@cs.com> wrote:
> Yes, sports.  I wonder if living under a dictatorship has something to
> do with it too.  I find it most depressing that Singapore and Korea
> far outscore countries where the citizens are allowed to have some
> say.
>
Maire,
If you're in England, then you must have some kind of an inkling of how
that story about the US having "freedoms" that no other countries have
is rubbish (to use an "English" word).
My experience has been that students in Korea and Singapore (and Japan
and Germany and England and France, and even in Russia to some extent)
have more "freedoms" than our students because there is much less
crime, less intimidation by fellow students, less harassment for being
studious, and more support from other students, parents, and teachers
for students who are attempting to learn.
There was a time when it seemed that there must be some hidden magic to
the way US education worked, because other countries take education so
much more seriously and have much better education policies.  But that
was before TIMSS proved that this was an illusion--our system does NOT
work in any category--not in academics, not spirituality, and not in
ethics.
John Knight
[moderator's note: Please let's try to keep this on track. Discussions in this
newsgroup should adhere specifically to mathematics education, and not the
education system in general.]
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: re: mother's manifesto
Date: 01 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <6ipt4tsjccorie6ergn7qhn286fe79v1hh@4ax.com>,
  MaireLawry <MaireLawry@cs.com> wrote:
> The point is that they learn, not necessarily that they get such and
> such a grade, or do so well or not on a test, or get into an A
> university or not.  If the kids are not learning the material, their
> education is inadequate.  Many people don't do well on tests, but can
> demonstrate that they understand the ideas.  I also am more concerned
> about the fact that both boys and girls in the US scored so low that
> all of them must be taught well.  EVERYONE should receive a good math
> education.
>
The notion that test scores and quality of learning are independent
entities is another educators' cop out which is almost unique to
American educators.   Every study you can lay your hands on shows that
test scores DO measure exactly what students learn, comprehend, and
understand.  In fact, standardized test scores like SAT, GMAT, ACT,
GRE, and TIMSS are better indicators of critical thinking skills than
college grades, age of the student, number of graduate courses taken,
time spent reading, coursework, or even taking critical thinking
courses themselves.
An interesting aberration from this is the MCAT, which is the test
which determines who is admitted to medical schools.  Scores on
critical thinking tests show a very low correlation to MCAT scores,
which raises serious questions about how politicized our medical
schools have gotten.  You can see the entire study at
http://nces.ed.gov/NPEC/papers/PDF/d&a.pdf
There is a brief review of the results of this study at
http://fathersmanifesto.com/satcriticalthinking.htm
The concept in the US that "EVERYONE should receive a good math
education" is belied by the fact that NOBODY receives a good education
any more.  To add insult to injury, less than two thirds of our 18 year
olds even graduate from high school, compared to more than 92% in most
other countries (even those whose 8th graders scored more than 100
TIMSS Math points higher than ours).
If the quality of US educators isn't improved quickly, intentionally,
consciously, publicly, and positively, nothing else that is done in US
education will improve our children's education quality one single bit.
That might not be the only problem, but it is a drop-dead prerequisite.
John Knight
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: TIMSS questions
Date: 01 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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That's a good point.  If our children spent as much time studying math
as they do watching football, then 75% of the top US patent holders
might be Americans rather than Japanese
http://fathersmanifesto.com/patents.htm
The real crime about school sports is that our teachers have permitted
slackers who don't understand the subject matter to graduate just
because they were good in sports.  For that reason alone, the two
should be completely separated.  If academics had been be their FIRST
priority in the first place, then a third of our potential high school
graduates wouldn't have dropped out before they even graduated from
high school.
If we had hired competent teachers in the first place, this could never
have happened, because they would have been able to make the case which
needed to be made 40 years ago about how much more important academics
are than sports.  American children today don't even have the slightest
idea about the difference.
John Knight

In article <agpt4tsqud6od8f6rerddnekiq5ga0tsmt@4ax.com>,
  "Sanders" <sanders@sandersontx.net> wrote:
> I think a lot of the problems with our educational system could be
greatly
> improved by putting more emphasis on academics and less on sports.
Not
> likely that will ever happen here.  If I am correct, most countries
other
> than the US do not provide sports as a part of the school program.
Aren't
> they all done on the student's own time and at their expense?
> AJC
> manifesto@christianparty.net wrote in message ...
> >In article <05i24tkjid0tnqfqgudiuuni18faoafvpr@4ax.com>,
> >  Dave Gertler <dgertler@concentricNO.SPAMnet> wrote:
> >>
> >> manifesto@christianparty.net wrote:
> >>
> >> > [...]
> >> > Another question which is interesting is Item J13, "Overall
Average
> >> > Test Score", which is a probability and statistics question.
> >> >
> >> > This is a four part multiple choice question.  If all students
just
> >> > guessed at the answers, 25% of them would have gotten it correct.
> >Only
> >> > 28.7% of American 12th grade girls correctly answered this
question,
> >> > compared to 54.5% of American boys.
> >> >
> >> > [...]You could argue that some of these TIMSS questions measure a
> >skill
> >> > which is not needed by all citizens.  But this particular item
is a
> >> > question which measures the ability to assess the probability of
an
> >> > event, which can't just be dismissed offhand.
> >> >
> >> > It suggests that the majority of our teachers, who are women, are
> >> > unable to grade their own students properly.
> >>
> >> I think it suggests that you are unable to draw inferences
properly.
> >>
> >> Do you think that the girls who go on to become math teachers are
> >> statistically similar, in terms of their math ability, to the girls
> >who
> >> don't? Or do you think there is some tiny chance that the average
> >female
> >> math teacher is considerably _better_ at math than the average
female
> >who
> >> isn't a math teacher?
> >>
> >> I don't know you, and I'm trying to be kind here. But I get the
clear
> >> impression that you are so heck-bent on making a point that you are
> >willing
> >> to use any sort of [il]logic to get there.
> >>
> >
> >
> >There are a number of problems with that assumption.  One is that the
> >most highly qualified women mathematicians become teachers rather
than
> >engineers or physicists.  Because there are so many women in these
> >other positions, and because education majors score 55 SAT Math
points
> >lower than average, it's clear that the LEAST, not most, qualified
> >women mathematicians become teachers.
> >
> >The other problem is that it ignores the distribution curves of the
> >math scores for girls.  http://fathersmanifesto.com/gre.htm shows
that
> >the very highest scoring girls score lower than the median scores for
> >boys in many subject areas.  Since education majors score 55 SAT Math
> >points lower than the average SAT Math score for all college
students,
> >it's certain that our teachers come from the lower intellectual
strata,
> >rather than the higher strata.  That means that the gap between
> >American teachers and many of their own students is even greater than
> >the 200 GRE point gap between their median scores (about 250 GRE
> >points).
> >
> >
> >"you are so heck-bent on making a point that you are willing to use
any
> >sort of [il]logic to get there" is flame bait.
> >
> ><beginning of personal anecdote> I'm not going to fall for your flame
> >baiting, nor am I going to get into a personal discussion with you.
> >The ONLY personal comment I will make about this is that I have both
a
> >son and a daughter who were educated OUTSIDE the US before they got
> >caught up in the TERRIBLE American school system, and that it is
> >precisely attitudes like yours which prevent an EASY problem from
being
> >easily resolved.  </End of personal anecdote>.
> >
> >What part of this is "illogical"?
> >
> >John Knight
--
Feminism is the lie that the American woman is the owner of two thirds
of the wealth in the nation which had the world's highest incomes, less
than 6% of workplace fatalities & prison inmates, custodian of nine
tenths of the children of divorce, a super-citizen by affirmative
action and "equal protection", 80% of federal beneficiaries, a non-
taxpayer; & a murder or suicide victim one fifth as often, lives 7
years longer, 11% more of the vote, than men; but is "discriminated
against".
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: TIMSS questions
Date: 01 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <f7q05t4d7qhi99p0jl088sn2bcnks90f8g@4ax.com>,
  moshewr@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <e7qc4tckuu4l8v23nl0nlqc9h8f2ijq618@4ax.com>,
>   manifesto@christianparty.net wrote:
> > In article <ava84t4e0g9e8q8j52jb28l78vv66k42c7@4ax.com>,
> >   Dave Gertler <dgertler@concentricNO.SPAMnet> wrote:
>
> > > > "you are so heck-bent on making a point that you are willing to
> use
> > any
> > > > sort of [il]logic to get there" is flame bait.
> > > >
> > > > <beginning of personal anecdote> I'm not going to fall for your
> > flame
> > > > baiting, nor am I going to get into a personal discussion with
> you.
> > > > The ONLY personal comment I will make about this is that I have
> > both a
> > > > son and a daughter who were educated OUTSIDE the US before they
> got
> > > > caught up in the TERRIBLE American school system, and that it is
> > > > precisely attitudes like yours which prevent an EASY problem
from
> > being
> > > > easily resolved.  </End of personal anecdote>.
> > >
> > > If by "easily resolved" you mean "redouble our efforts to interest
> > girls in
> > > math," we have some common ground.
> > >
> > > If by "easily resolved" you mean "throw all the women out of math
> > > education," I think we'll need to agree to disagree.
> > >
> >
> > If it were demonstrated to you with certainty that the median math
> > skills of multiple groups of American students [read: math majors,
> > physics majors, business majors, engineering majors, humanities
> majors,
> > life science majors, to name a few] are better than the very top 2
> > percentile of existing American teachers, would you still insist
that
> > we need to agree to disagree?
> >
> > John Knight
>
> I got lost in the double negatives.
>
> Could you clarify,  and or answer, that question?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Moshe
Double negative?  What double negative.
To review this thread: Dave seems to believe that the low percentage of
teachers in the US who are men (the ones who score 50 SAT Math points
and 250 GRE Quantitative points higher than women) has nothing to do
with the fact that our 12th graders scored 100-200 TIMSS Math points
lower than 12th graders in countries whose teachers are mostly men.
The mere mention of this as a factor in our low standing
internationally in education motivated him to sling around compliments
like "you are so heck-bent on making a point that you are willing to
use any sort of [il]logic to get there".
The response to his posts have been censored as being off-topic, though
nobody ever explained where is the "illogic" of asking how it could be
possible that there is NOT at least SOME connection here.  If the
demonstrable problem solving skills of American 12th grade girls are
zero (or negative on some questions), and if the studies all show no
increase in critical thinking or problem solving skills after 12th
grade, then how can American women teachers possibly teach such skills
to 11th or 12th grade boys, some of whom DO demonstrate the ability to
resolve those problems?
The answer always seems to be "just because you don't understand math
doesn't mean that you can't teach it", but then we are back to the
question of why they can't teach it if this isn't the reason.  If they
CAN teach it even though they don't understand it, but our students
score so close to zero that it looks like an intentional dumbing down,
then what IS the reason that they DON'T teach it?
There is an entire littany of retorts that American teachers must learn
in "college", because they all seem to have enough of exactly the same
bits of disinformation to seem knowledgeable to some parents.  The
TIMSS study did far more than demonstrate the colossal failure US
education is--it is a valid scientific study which eliminated that
littany, one by one.
There are plenty of standardized tests which can be used to test the
teachers (as 95% of parents want them to be tested).  Our teachers must
be tested, and if they don't know their own subject matter, then we
must get teachers who DO know it.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr001101.asp
TIMSS is valid scientific proof that there is absolutely nothing that
can be done to get teachers who don't understand their subject matter
to teach it.  There is no argument.  Well, they do argue about it, but
they have not a single study and not a single statistic to back up
that  argument--then again, they don't understand math well enough to
know that they have no argument.
Does that clear up the double negatives );
John Knight
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: I suppose I should write a mother's manifesto
Date: 26 Dec 2000 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <9m4f4totej9rlgs4ves5nr5lbtf3tkaa65@4ax.com>,
  MaireLawry <MaireLawry@cs.com> wrote:
> Now we know why you are on an anti-girl crusade.  If that is the worst
> you can do with six years of school, it probably isn't discrimination.
>
> In four MONTHS, our daughter has been called a stupid American b****,
> her math notebook was ripped in half, all her math equipment was
> vandalized, she was bullied...
>
> I wish our problems were as minor as yours.
>
If it's any consolation, England doesn't score that much higher than
the US, at least at the 8th grade level.  Their average TIMSS math
score was 506, which is only 6 points higher than ours, which suggests
that the lack of discipline in English schools probably plays an
equivalent role in poor education quality as it plays in the US.
But the events you describe might not be any more serious than what
happens to many students in many schools.  It would be easy to outdo
you in the anecdote area by countering that this lack of discipline in
American schools caused some really serious problems for my son.  By
comparison to the systematic anti-boy discrimination where boys are
graded one or two letter grades lower than girls, and where boys
represent only 40% of college admissions, though, such events are
almost meaningless.
John Knight
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: TIMSS questions
Date: 24 Dec 2000 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <7bn84t0vh20ss1uigt55tckdh22v163jab@4ax.com>,
  Richard Askey <askey@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
>   There were 67 questions which advanced students in the United
> States answered in the 12th grade TIMSS test on advanced mathematics.
> On 10 of these, US males scored above the international average,
> on 4, females did.  Both of these seem to me to be so low that I
> am not especially concerned that one is lower than the other.
Thank you for posting this example, Dick, which seems to be geometry
question K14 "Length of String Around Rod"?
It would be interesting to know why you are "not especially concerned"
that 150% more American boys than American girls scored over the
international average.  This is even more revealing than the overall
difference between 12th grade American boys and girls in TIMSS Geometry
(408 vs. 439), where nobody scored lower than American girls.  This
particular question is one in which the average percent correct for
American boys was 6.1 times greater than the average percent correct
for American girls.
We didn't score dead last on this question, because Greece and Cyprus
scored lower, but twice as many boys internationally than American boys
and 5.1 times as many girls internationally than American girls
answered it correctly, as did 26 times as many Swedish and Swiss boys,
28 times as many Lithuanian boys, and 15 times as many Austrian,
Canadian, Czech, Danish, German and Russian boys, than American girls.
This is an extremely revealing question, but you must consider the
differences between the sexes before you can make any sense of it.  One
reason is that the countries with the highest gap between the sexes are
also the countries with the highest scores.  We have one of the
smallest gaps between the sexes, but we also have the lowest overall
scores in geometry.
Another reason is that the test taking strategy of girls differs quite
a bit from that of boys.
In other words, this is a "success" to the gender benders who are
determined to conceal the differences between the sexes, but it is a
colossal failure to us taxpayers and parents.

>   We need to improve education for all of our students, and that
> includes early elementary school students whose score on TIMSS
> being above average does not mean that their education in mathematics
> is adequate.  Mathematics is a cumulative subject where gaps at
> one level cause serious problems later.
Agreed.  One thing that is almost unique to American education is that
boys are being held back from learning geometry while American girls
are playing catchup.  The most valuable insight we can gain from TIMSS
is that American girls just aren't catching up, while our boys are
being held back.
>   One striking fact about the results on TIMSS broken down by
> specific answers to individual questions is the different way
> in which US students and students from other countries acted
> when they did not know how to answer a question which required
> a written response.  One such question had a string wrapped around
> a cylinder four times and the length of the string was asked for.
> The circumference is 4 cm and the length is 12 cm.
>   Here are the results for US students and for the international
> average.
> Correct responses
> 20 Length of string=20 cm.  Method, rod represented as rectangle
> 4 by 12, Pythagorean theorem used to find length of string which
> is represented as four lines of right triangles.
>
> 21 Length of string-20 cm.  Cut surface in half and represent as
> rectangle 2 by 12, etc.
>
> 22 ... Represented as rectangle 16 by 12 with string as diagonal
> or right triangle with sides 16 and 12 etc.
>
> 29  Other correct responses.
>
>      US   Ave
> 20   3.2   6.5
> 21   0.0   1.0
> 22   0.6   1.5
> 29   0.0   0.7
> total4.8   9.7
>
> Partial responses
> 10 Length of string = 20. No work shown.
>
> 11 Surface represented by rectangle with correct dimensions and
> position of string but numerical error in calculation of length
> of string.
>
> 19 All othe partially correct solutions with correct method and
> minor error.
>
>      US   Ave
> 10   0.2  0.7
> 11   0.2  0.2
> 19   0.1  0.9
>
> Incorrect response
> 70.Incorrect answer. No work shown.
>
> 71 Length of string = 16.  Argument: It is the same as 4 circles.
>
> 72 Length of string = 28.  Argument: If the string were wound 4
> times around the same place, its length would be 4 by 4.  But since
> it "moves" alnog the rod which is 12 cm long, we must add these
> 12 cm to the length of the string.
>
> 73 Estimation methods  ...
>
> 74 String represented by a curve, e.g. parts of a circle or an
> ellipse.
>
> 79 All other incorrect attempts with some work shown.
>
>      US   Ave
> 70   2.3  3.4
> 71  12.2  8.4
> 72   9.7  7.6
> 73   0.3  2.8
> 74   0.1  1.4
> 79  56.2 22.5
>
> Nonresponse
> 90 Crossed-out, illegible, or impossible to interpret.
>
> 99 Blank
>
>      US   Ave
> 90   3.0  6.3
> 99  11.9 36.0
>
>   The numbers which interest me are those given in 79 and 99.
> I have graded papers for over 40 years and so can guess what
> most of those listed under 79 are.  Almost all of them are likely
> to be completely wrong, written in the hope that some part credit
> will be given for anything which is written.  Most of them should
> have been left blank.  I have had teaching assistants from many
> different countries and know that traditions about what gets part
> credit varies from one country to another.  I decided many
> years ago that giving partial credit for something which is really
> worth nothing does the student a disfavor.  They learn the wrong
> message about what is worth something and what is not.
100% agreed.  The fact that our students were one third as likely to
leave question 99 blank as the international average at the same time
that they were one third to one half as likely as the international
average to correctly answer questions 20, 21, 22, 29, 10, 11, and 19 is
suggestive of a poor test taking strategy, in addition to having poor
math skills relative to almost every other country.
Wouldn't it be nice to see this broken down by sex?
> Some of
> you have much more direct experience in schooling in other countries.
> Do you have any comments on this problem?
>   A friend told me about a student who was a first year graduate
> student.  The student had come from a weak college and was not
> doing well.  However, everything that the student wrote was correct,
> he just did not write much.  This student went back to the college
> he had graduated from and taught there for a couple of years.  Then
> he went back to the same graduate school, which readmitted him on
> the basis of a strong recommendation from my friend.  The student
> had learned more, finished his Ph.D., is now a full professor at
> a moderately good state university, has written many good papers,
> given invited addresses at national and international meetings, etc.
> I claim that if this student had tried to fool his professors into
> thinking he knew something when he did not, he would not have
> succeeded.  We need to encourage students to act like this one did,
> and write what they know, not what they don't know.
>   Dick Askey
>
If you believe that anecdotes like this are important in examining why
we score so low in so many international tests, wouldn't you think that
it would be worthwhile to compare the above to an anecdote about a very
competent mathematician who became an educator and proved that good
math skills are important to educating children in math?
The prevailing attitude in US education seems to be that working hard
will compensate for an inability to comprehend math.  Could the main
problem be that our schools spend too much time trying to educate the
uneducable rather than improving the quality of education for the
educable?
John Knight
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: TIMSS questions
Date: 24 Dec 2000 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <ava84t4e0g9e8q8j52jb28l78vv66k42c7@4ax.com>,
  Dave Gertler <dgertler@concentricNO.SPAMnet> wrote:
>
> manifesto@christianparty.net wrote:
>
> > In article <05i24tkjid0tnqfqgudiuuni18faoafvpr@4ax.com>,
> >   Dave Gertler <dgertler@concentricNO.SPAMnet> wrote:
> > >
> > [...]do you think there is some tiny chance that the average
> > female
> > > math teacher is considerably _better_ at math than the average
female
> > who
> > > isn't a math teacher?
> > >
> > [...]
> >
> > There are a number of problems with that assumption.  One is that
the
> > most highly qualified women mathematicians become teachers rather
than
> > engineers or physicists.  Because there are so many women in these
> > other positions, and because education majors score 55 SAT Math
points
> > lower than average, it's clear that the LEAST, not most, qualified
> > women mathematicians become teachers.
>
> I never assumed that "the most highly qualified women mathematicians
become
> teachers." I postulated that the women who go into math teaching have
far
> better math skills than the average woman. There's a difference.
>
There's not much of a difference between your point and mine, but the
answer to each is the same:  the least qualified students go into
education.  The average SAT Math score for education majors is 446,
which is 55 points lower than the average college student and 161
points lower than math majors.  Their average SAT Verbal score is 407
which is 60 points lower than math majors and 90 points lower than
physical science majors.
http://fathersmanifesto.com/dtab130.htm
The gap is even bigger after 3-4 years of college, when students take
the GRE.  Girls who major in education score 426 in GRE Verbal, which
is 58 points lower than boys who major in physical science and 114
points lower than boys who major in humanities.  The revealing score,
though, is their 458 in GRE quantitative, which is 40 points lower than
boys who major in education and 239 points points lower than boys who
major in engineering.
http://fathersmanifesto.com/gre.htm
> You mention a stat for education majors in general. Perhaps education
majors
> who go into math teaching are just a _bit_ better at math than the
average
> education major? Perhaps a _lot_ better?
If these test scores are representative of our teachers' math skills
(and they must be as 80% of our teachers majored in education), then
most of our boy students already have far better math skills than most
of their teachers.
iow, believing that a college education is going to make someone a
better teacher is a serious error.
>
> > The other problem is that it ignores the distribution curves of the
> > math scores for girls.  http://fathersmanifesto.com/gre.htm shows
that
> > the very highest scoring girls score lower than the median scores
for
> > boys in many subject areas.  Since education majors score 55 SAT
Math
> > points lower than the average SAT Math score for all college
students,
> > it's certain that our teachers come from the lower intellectual
strata,
> > rather than the higher strata.  That means that the gap between
> > American teachers and many of their own students is even greater
than
> > the 200 GRE point gap between their median scores (about 250 GRE
> > points).
>
> What we need to do, then, is do a better job of enticing the best and
> brightest students -- of both genders -- to go into teaching. Right?
>
Half right.
> > "you are so heck-bent on making a point that you are willing to use
any
> > sort of [il]logic to get there" is flame bait.
> >
> > <beginning of personal anecdote> I'm not going to fall for your
flame
> > baiting, nor am I going to get into a personal discussion with you.
> > The ONLY personal comment I will make about this is that I have
both a
> > son and a daughter who were educated OUTSIDE the US before they got
> > caught up in the TERRIBLE American school system, and that it is
> > precisely attitudes like yours which prevent an EASY problem from
being
> > easily resolved.  </End of personal anecdote>.
>
> If by "easily resolved" you mean "redouble our efforts to interest
girls in
> math," we have some common ground.
>
> If by "easily resolved" you mean "throw all the women out of math
> education," I think we'll need to agree to disagree.
>
If it were demonstrated to you with certainty that the median math
skills of multiple groups of American students [read: math majors,
physics majors, business majors, engineering majors, humanities majors,
life science majors, to name a few] are better than the very top 2
percentile of existing American teachers, would you still insist that
we need to agree to disagree?
John Knight

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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: example
Date: 24 Dec 2000 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <h8n94t4pegsbp81jdfqvenq343450nt6nt@4ax.com>,
  Ginny Jackson <glangton@cts.com> wrote:
> I think that I need to repost part of my message and see if you can
read
> it correctly the second time.  It was not that there was only one rest
> room...I can manage under far more primitive conditions.  The message
> that there was one only and it was the custodian's closet, was that
> women were not wanted or expected in the engineering building.
>
> " Also when I went to college and was majoring in math, I
> took a class in an engineering building.  One day I needed to use the
> rest room.  In this three story building, there was a men's room on
each
> floor.  There was one women's room, which would have been fine, except
> that it was also the custodian's closet!  It was a clear message that
> women were not wanted there."
>
> Prejudice is wrong, whether against females or males, people of color
or
> different religions and conditions.
What is your point?
Do you believe that a limited number of women's rest rooms in this
country, or in certain places, is why a statistical zero percent of
American 12th grade girls were able to correctly apply math and physics
principles to resolving the TIMSS questions?
If not, what are you suggesting?
What do you believe is the relationship between your anecdote and your
students' low test scores?
>
> Somehow, I don't imagine that you are on the "front line" of
education,
> where 160 individual students, ages 12,13 and 14, come with their
> differences to be educationed each day of the week.  This is where I
am
> during the school year, educating students with knowledge and
> understanding of mathematics, building their confidence in their
ability
> to learn, through high standards and expectations, with a sense of
> humor!
>
> I highly respect those who post to this newsgroup and feel that you
are
> ranting and raving at the wrong people.  They are working teachers and
> mathematicians answering questions and sharing knowledge to
colleagues.
>
> Ginny Jackson
>
American parents don't appreciate at all educators' attempts to
trivialize our input by referring to it as "ranting and raving".
It is an effective debate tactic, one which has managed to misdirect
our focus from the problem, but one which has just come to a screeching
halt.
John Knight

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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: TIMSS-R Results Released
Date: 24 Dec 2000 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <jhrs3t0fsr72nai9sqcggnvv9s25psuhmk@4ax.com>,
  Ginny Jackson <glangton@cts.com> wrote:
> Is there a measure of males in education vs. females in engineering?
>
> > An example of girls having a higher standard deviation is girls who
> > major in education who score 458 with a standard deviation of 109,
> > compared to boys who major in engineering who score 697 with a
standard
> > deviation of 88.  In this case, the difference in the median scores
is
> > 239, and the difference at the 90th percentile is less, at 218
points.
> > While it is smaller than at the median, a 218 point difference is
> > significant.
> > > that is evidence of the failure of our educational system, not the
> > cause
> > > of it.
> > >
> >
>
> BTW, we usually refer to high school and college students at young men
> and women.  Boys and girls are elementary age students.
>
It's not clear why my previous response was censored, but here it is
again.
This country doesn't recognize citizens below 21 years of age as
adults, because it has numerous restrictions on those below 21 which
most other countries don't have.  Ironically, those countries refer to
those under 21 years of age as children, while we (who don't even let
them buy alcohol or cigarettes, and who require them to carry picture
IDs around all the time) call them "young men and women".
They are boys and girls until they are 21.  By referring to children
as "men" and "women", you are discounting the fact that they cannot and
do not make responsible adult decisions.  It seems that the reason our
educators do this is to enable educators to blame the failure of
education on the children themselves.
It is the worst form of hypocrisy for our educators to do this.
John Knight

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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: what questions were asked?
Date: 24 Dec 2000 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <j4i24tgjvfkg29q99o9a5m1p5cb977hb8h@4ax.com>,
  "Bob Houston" <rhouston@wf.net> wrote:
> I haven't been able to access this link.  I keep getting a page that
says
> the page can't be displayed.
>
> bob
>
> --
> Bob Houston
> 1759 Cuba Road
> Bridgeport, Texas 76426
> rhouston@wf.net
> "Maire Lawry" <MaireLawry@cs.com> wrote in message
> news:igpv3tsss3qpjsi5o3j3adpl6eqp1lc419@4ax.com...
> > Where can I find the questions that were asked?  I can't even find
the
> > ones from the TIMSS that used to be posted on the site.
>

It seems like that url is down a lot.  The following page has many of
the TIMSS questions, answers, and scores as pdf documents:
http://fathersmanifesto.com/timssdocs.htm
John Knight
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: example
Date: 23 Dec 2000 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <qta84t44gm6uapbh12s7m256kc4ln24pkd@4ax.com>,
  Dave Gertler <dgertler@concentricNO.SPAMnet> wrote:
>
> manifesto@christianparty.net wrote:
>
> > In article <ln224t0orsk51lu1mgo385kgsh08ovp8ms@4ax.com>,
> >   Dave Gertler <dgertler@concentricNO.SPAMnet> wrote:
> > [...]> All of this makes Mr. Knight's charge of "favoritism" toward
girls
> > so
> > absurd
> > > that I was trying to be kind by viewing it as trolling rather
than a
> > > sincerely held belief.
> > >
> >
> > This is not a "sincerely held belief".  It is a simple observation
of
> > the facts.  The fact is that American girls receive grades which are
> > one or two letter grades higher than boys, yet boys score 50-300
math
> > points higher than girls in every standardized test you can get your
> > hands on.  For this reason, many girls who are unqualified to go to
> > college are admitted (girls are now 60% of college admissions) and
many
> > boys who ARE qualified are not admitted (boys are now only 40% of
> > college admissions).
>
> Can you cite a source for your "one or two letter grades higher"
claim?
Sure:
Wainer, Howard;  Steinberg, Linda S., Sex Differences in Performance on
the Mathematics Section of the Scholastic Aptitude Test: A
Bidirectional Validity Study. Harvard Educational
Review;  v62 n3 p323-36 Fall 1992
You can see some excerpts of the data at
http://fathersmanifesto.com/satwainer.htm but it's recommended that you
see the original study first, in the event you feel inclined to repeat
your claim that this is "trolling rather than a sincerely held belief".
>
> Do you think that someone with greater ability but a lesser work
ethic is
> necessarily more qualified for college than someone with the opposite
> attributes?
Let us see if we understand your question here?
Are you asking if someone who is incompetent to properly resolve a
simple math problem which up to 80% of Swiss girls and up to 90% of
Swiss boys can resolve would be just as likely to succeed in college as
Swiss boys and girls because they have a greater "work ethic"?
Or are you asking if someone who demonstrates that they already
understand the math principles and is capable of applying those math
principles to problem solving, and thus to correctly resolve the math
problem, is less qualified than someone with a greater "work ethic" who
can't?
If this is paraphrased properly, then it would seem that the student
who already understands math principles, who can already apply those
principles to problem solving, and who has already demonstrated that
they can resolve math problems correctly, wouldn't NEED to spend any
more time with his "work ethic", and can get on with the process of
being educated in higher math in college, whereas the student who
demonstrated that they can't resolve the problem by 12th grade will
spend a LOT of time trying to catch up, will successfully impress lots
of teachers with a superior "work ethic", but will forever be
frustrated by a failure to do so.
Does that sum up US "education"?
>
> > Are you satisfied with this?  Do you think it's acceptable to just
> > ASSUME that "girls work harder than boys"--and continue to fail to
> > educate the MOST qualified students?
>
> I educate everyone. And I don't "assume" that girls work harder than
boys --
> I have observed, in my years of teaching in a variety of schools,
that most
> middle school girls work harder than most middle school boys.


My direct observation in both the US and other education systems
suggests that this is almost uniquely an American problem.  Even the
TIMSS study touches around the edges here.  With the possible
exceptions of Canada and England, there are few other countries who
have a problem motivating boys.
This is your problem.  This is not your students' problem, and it is
not your students' parents' problem, and it's not going to be resolved
with more money, smaller class sizes, more books, computers, more
teachers, nor even Al Gore's internet.
>
> > WHY in the world would you think it is acceptable that our schools
> > continue to fail to motivate boys, if indeed they DON'T work any
harder
> > at it than girls?
>
> I use many methods to motivate boys who do superficial or otherwise
> insufficient work. At this age level (middle school), though, most
girls
> take a more mature approach to their work than most boys. Girls just
tend to
> mature sooner in some ways. If you don't know that, you know little
about
> education or adolescence.
>
Do you also claim that I know nothing about motivation?
> Does your son work at least as diligently and thoroughly as the
average girl
> in his classes? If he does, congratulations -- he's probably ahead of
most
> boys. If not, I'm sorry to hear it, but don't put all the blame on the
> school.
>
Oh, we will put all the blame on the school.  An education system which
costs more per student than just about any country on the planet, at
the same time that it produces 12th graders who not only score DEAD
LAST in 17 of 34 TIMSS subjects but who also score even lower than
their 8th graders, at the same time that it spends enormous resources
blaming everything and everyone [including CHILDREN] BUT the teachers,
will get 99% + of the blame.  It's inevitible.
John Knight
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From: manifesto@christianparty.net
Subject: Re: For Malcolm and anyone else interested in education in Singapore
Date: 08 Jan 2001 00:00:00 GMT
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In article <8dgk4t0s6o6igt79b7km8km9al2mk3l50b@4ax.com>,
  Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> toto <nobody@xxozxx.com> wrote:
> I was particularly struck by the following:
> >13. Even though the Singapore education system is a successful one,
the
> >:>3% of each age cohort (or about 1,500 children) who are not
enrolled in
> >:>national schools remains a cause for concern. Among this 3%, most
of them
> >:>have migrated overseas, are not contactable or are enrolled in
private schools,
> >:>like madrasahs and San Yu Adventist School. A very small number
(less than
> >:>ten) receive education at home. The number of children who are not
enrolled in
> >:>school because of family problems and financial difficulties is
small. MOE and
> >:>MCDS render assistance to such known cases, and these children do
> >:>eventually enrol in national schools. (See Annex 4 for details of
non-registration
> >:>in and dropout from national schools.)
> >
> >So, MK, it looks like only 3 % of children in Singapore actually
> >attend schools that give a different curriculum than the National
> >one and that very very few are homeschooled.  Interesting in the
> >light of your continual touting of Singapore as the bastion of some
> >kind of school choice.  It would appear that such choice does not
> >exist in reality.
>
> Moreover the word choice - that these 3% are "cause for concern",
suggests
> that they are NOT being tested by TIMSS and/or are not achieving as
well on
> tests as those who attend the national schools.  So when panther
touts the
> Singapore system, he is touting the uniform national schools that are
> successful, and not apparently the 3% who exercised "choice".
>
> lojbab
This is a completely absurd statement based on a totally false premise.
You have no way to know that private or home schooled students in
Singapore would have scored lower than public school students.  If it's
like in the US, both groups would have scored much higher than public
school students scored, which is most likely the "cause for concern" by
the Singapore government.  Clinton has "cause for concern" for
America's home schooled students because as a group they scored much
higher than than students from all public schools and thus threaten the
lock the government has on education--not because they scored lower.
Even if the 3% would have gotten ZERO percent of the questions correct
had they taken TIMSS, this would have reduced Singapore's TIMSS math
score from 643 to 623 at best, which is still 123 points higher than
the US.  If this 3% had scored in the range of American students (an
outrageous and unlikely assumption), this would have reduced
Singapore's score by only 4 points, to 639, which is still 139 points
higher than our average score.
ALL Singapore students have a "choice" which no American public school
student has--teachers who have PROVEN that they understand math, and
thus can teach it.
None of our public school students have that luxury, because, 1) our
teachers come from a labor pool which has an average 500 TIMSS Math
skill, and 2) our education majors score 50 points lower than the
average college student.
We don't need another test to know that our teachers don't understand
math--TIMSS proved it for us.
John Knight
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TRAITOR McCain

jewn McCain

ASSASSIN of JFK, Patton, many other Whites

killed 264 MILLION Christians in WWII

killed 64 million Christians in Russia

holocaust denier extraordinaire--denying the Armenian holocaust

millions dead in the Middle East

tens of millions of dead Christians

LOST $1.2 TRILLION in Pentagon
spearheaded torture & sodomy of all non-jews
millions dead in Iraq

42 dead, mass murderer Goldman LOVED by jews

serial killer of 13 Christians

the REAL terrorists--not a single one is an Arab

serial killers are all jews

framed Christians for anti-semitism, got caught
left 350 firemen behind to die in WTC

legally insane debarred lawyer CENSORED free speech

mother of all fnazis, certified mentally ill

10,000 Whites DEAD from one jew LIE

moser HATED by jews: he followed the law

f.ck Jesus--from a "news" person!!

1000 fold the child of perdition

 

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Modified Saturday, March 11, 2017

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